Minutes 2008-10-02/IRC

From Wikimedia UK
Jump to navigation Jump to search

#wikimedia-uk-board

Oct 02 20:06:34 <AndrewRT>	right let's get started then
Oct 02 20:06:56 <AndrewRT>	shall we start with electing a chair?
Oct 02 20:07:21 <cfp>	sure. anyone want to nominate someone who isn't themself?
Oct 02 20:07:30 <cfp>	failing that anyone want to nominate themself?
Oct 02 20:07:38 <AndrewRT>	i nominate KTC
Oct 02 20:07:43 <AndrewRT>	if he's happy to do it
Oct 02 20:07:59 <Warofdreams>	KTC, would chair be your preferred position?
Oct 02 20:08:27 <KTC>	sorry, 2 diff computer
Oct 02 20:08:34 <AndrewRT>	based on what he said here (http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Candidate_statements#KTC) about the right ethos
Oct 02 20:08:48 <AndrewRT>	transparancy etc
Oct 02 20:08:54 <KTC>	um
Oct 02 20:09:04 <KTC>	look at the others to see if anyone else is interested first
Oct 02 20:09:21 <AndrewRT>	not to say that others wouldn't also do a good job
Oct 02 20:09:50 <mpeel>	My standard line here is that I'll do the job if no-one else wants it.
Oct 02 20:09:55 <cfp>	i'm happy with KTC to do it if he doesn't object
Oct 02 20:10:08 <Warofdreams>	I agree with mpeel, and also with cfp.
Oct 02 20:10:12 *	schiste (n=Ter@80.125.172.58) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:10:30 <Warofdreams>	But wanted to check first if KTC had a position in mind
Oct 02 20:10:55 <KTC>	no, no, that's okay if everyone is happy :)
Oct 02 20:11:23 *	Avruch_ (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/avruch) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:11:25 <Warofdreams>	mpeel, are you happy with KTC as chair?
Oct 02 20:11:30 <mpeel>	yes
Oct 02 20:11:31 <AndrewRT>	any other nominations or is KTC elected?
Oct 02 20:11:52 <Warofdreams>	looks like it's unanimous.  congrats KTC!
Oct 02 20:12:05 <KTC>	thank you everyone
Oct 02 20:12:15 <KTC>	now, any nomination for sec ?
Oct 02 20:12:27 *	Platonides (n=Platonid@wikipedia/Platonides) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:12:40 <AndrewRT>	i'd like to nominate myself
Oct 02 20:12:49 <AndrewRT>	based on the job being focussed on company formation
Oct 02 20:13:00 <AndrewRT>	and i think that's where i'd be able to contiribute the most
Oct 02 20:13:18 <KTC>	AndrewRT, would you not be interested in tres ? (from your background)
Oct 02 20:13:31 <KTC>	obviously if you prefer sec
Oct 02 20:13:50 <AndrewRT>	I think Tres shoudl be focused on fundraising
Oct 02 20:13:58 <AndrewRT>	rather than acocunting
Oct 02 20:14:17 <AndrewRT>	i'm happy to help teh Tres with the books if need be
Oct 02 20:14:38 <AndrewRT>	having said that, i'd be happy to be Tres instead of Sec if the Board thinks that's better
Oct 02 20:14:46 Warofdreams wknight8111 worby 
Oct 02 20:14:58 <Warofdreams>	would it make sense to take nominations for Tres before elected the Sec, just to make sure we have someone?
Oct 02 20:15:22 <mpeel>	the main initial focus of the treasurer would be getting the bank account, wouldn't it?
Oct 02 20:15:28 <cfp>	i'm happy to be treasurer if no one else wants it.
Oct 02 20:15:45 *	Luna-San (n=goodysan@wikimedia/Luna-Santin) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:15:59 *	ChanServ gives voice to mpeel
Oct 02 20:16:12 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - yes i think so
Oct 02 20:16:12 <cfp>	but we should maybe clarify what exactly the secretary role entails as well.
Oct 02 20:16:56 <AndrewRT>	i agree with cfp
Oct 02 20:18:15 <KTC>	okay... AndrewRT, what do you envisage your role will be in the next few months until the first AGM, as secretary?
Oct 02 20:19:25 <AndrewRT>	Form Company, liase with Compaies House, tax, Charity Commission (if appl) appoint directors, be "Company Secretary", keep registers of Directors etc
Oct 02 20:19:49 <AndrewRT>	perhaps bring together discussions on Mem&Arts, liaise with ChapCom
Oct 02 20:19:55 *	chb (i=chb@freenode/staff/unixboard.chb) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:20:30 <cfp>	a big role... that's 95% of what we have to do...
Oct 02 20:20:30 <AndrewRT>	Minutes of meeting could be done by sec or chair
Oct 02 20:20:52 <AndrewRT>	hmm, yes
Oct 02 20:20:57 <mpeel>	in general, parts of the job could easily be doled out to other members of the board, no?
Oct 02 20:21:00 <Warofdreams>	given the amount of work you're taking on, I'd say the chair, or delegate to someone without an official role
Oct 02 20:21:10 <Warofdreams>	to minute, that is
Oct 02 20:21:21 <AndrewRT>	i'd like that yes - minutes done by chair?
Oct 02 20:21:30 <AndrewRT>	or minute sec
Oct 02 20:21:34 *	effeietsanders (n=chatzill@wikimedia/effeietsanders) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:21:37 <cfp>	we certainly need someone to organise us, but perhaps we should keep the defined role of the secretary as little more than that.
Oct 02 20:21:46 <cfp>	other jobs can be assigned as they arrise
Oct 02 20:22:03 <Warofdreams>	I'd be happy to minute - I've got plenty of experience
Oct 02 20:22:18 <AndrewRT>	honestly, the role i set out above is straighforward once the mem&arts are agreed - that's the hard bit!
Oct 02 20:22:31 <AndrewRT>	I'm co sec for quite a few companies already
Oct 02 20:23:00 <AndrewRT>	once you know the system it's no probs
Oct 02 20:23:39 <KTC>	i see liasing with CH, HMRC, and CC definitly part of a company secretary's role
Oct 02 20:23:56 <Warofdreams>	We could define the Sec role as being responsible for ensuring the things Andrew describes happen
Oct 02 20:24:00 <KTC>	likewise with officially keeping a registers of directors
Oct 02 20:24:21 <AndrewRT>	btw opening the bank a/c and organising the AGM are big jobs too - more than 5%!
Oct 02 20:24:51 <cfp>	i'm certainly happy for you to be sec, but just don't try and take everything on yourself
Oct 02 20:25:03 <AndrewRT>	ok i'll bear that in mind!
Oct 02 20:25:20 <AndrewRT>	that why in want the board to make all the decisions - keep my life easy ;)
Oct 02 20:25:46 <AndrewRT>	_I_ want
Oct 02 20:25:58 <cfp>	and you're comfortable with the potential time commitments of being sec?
Oct 02 20:26:08 <AndrewRT>	yes that's fine
Oct 02 20:26:21 <AndrewRT>	in terms of the jobs i outlined above
Oct 02 20:26:34 <cfp>	k.
Oct 02 20:26:55 <AndrewRT>	particularly if someone else did stuff like minutes and communication with the community
Oct 02 20:27:03 <AndrewRT>	that's where i think there would be problems - expecting the sec to do that too
Oct 02 20:27:52 <KTC>	okay, i'm happy for AndrewRT to be sec, with a role that does not include communication with the community (including minutes)
Oct 02 20:27:52 <cfp>	warofdreams do you want to be "assistant sec" and handle those two tasks?
Oct 02 20:28:04 <Warofdreams>	yes, I'd be happy to do that.
Oct 02 20:28:37 <KTC>	mpeel, any thoughts ?
Oct 02 20:29:07 <mpeel>	all seems fine to me.
Oct 02 20:29:26 <KTC>	Warofdreams, call that Communication? (i.e. communication with the community, minutes etc.)
Oct 02 20:30:57 <Warofdreams>	yes, I'm not concerned with the title.
Oct 02 20:30:57 <cfp>	so mpeel, i guess one of us is treasurer and the others is membership officer.
Oct 02 20:30:57 <cfp>	have a preference?
Oct 02 20:31:02 <mpeel>	I'm good with mathematics and paperwork in general, but I have no knowledge of accountancy.
Oct 02 20:31:15 <Warofdreams>	I think it would be wise to check for any other nominations for sec and comms and take a vote
Oct 02 20:31:25 <cfp>	k sorry.
Oct 02 20:31:42 <AndrewRT>	im happy
Oct 02 20:31:48 <mpeel>	so I think you're best as treasurer, cfp, and I'm happy to sort out membership.
Oct 02 20:32:15 <mpeel>	I'm happy with AndrewRT as Sec, Warofdreams as Comm, cfp as Treas.
Oct 02 20:32:25 <Warofdreams>	I'm also happy with those roles
Oct 02 20:32:35 <KTC>	right, i officially purpose AndrewRT as treasurer, cfp as treasurer, mpeel membership, and Warofdreams as communication
Oct 02 20:32:38 <KTC>	any objection?
Oct 02 20:32:43 <mpeel>	no
Oct 02 20:32:45 <AndrewRT>	i support
Oct 02 20:32:52 <mpeel>	* no objection = I support
Oct 02 20:33:12 <KTC>	um that's AndrewRT as sec
Oct 02 20:33:16 <cfp>	no objection.
Oct 02 20:33:24 <AndrewRT>	oops
Oct 02 20:33:26 <Warofdreams>	support
Oct 02 20:33:51 <AndrewRT>	ART sec, cfp Tres, mpeel Mem, WOD Coms
Oct 02 20:34:24 <cfp>	support corrected statement...
Oct 02 20:34:28 <AndrewRT>	all seem to agree
Oct 02 20:34:31 <KTC>	okay, next order of business
Oct 02 20:34:36 <KTC>	:)
Oct 02 20:34:47 <AndrewRT>	can i suggest two brief items?
Oct 02 20:34:48 *	Jhs (n=jhsoby@wikimedia/jhs) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:34:52 <KTC>	sure
Oct 02 20:35:04 <Warofdreams>	please do
Oct 02 20:35:07 <AndrewRT>	first, not the election results and record our thanks to teh elecs cmte
Oct 02 20:35:11 <AndrewRT>	_note_
Oct 02 20:35:30 <AndrewRT>	second formally adopt the timetable as "ours"
Oct 02 20:35:57 <AndrewRT>	timetable being this one here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Timeline#Some_Changes
Oct 02 20:36:18 <AndrewRT>	why? Just to give us something to work to and make sure we keep on track
Oct 02 20:36:36 <AndrewRT>	and communiticate properly with the community if there are delays
Oct 02 20:37:07 <mpeel>	I have a couple of comments/suggested modifications to make about that version of the timetable....
Oct 02 20:38:03 <AndrewRT>	ok
Oct 02 20:38:11 <KTC>	we here note the election results and thank the election committee for their fine job :)
Oct 02 20:38:24 <KTC>	mpeel, what's your suggestion to the timetable?
Oct 02 20:38:27 <Warofdreams>	agree with KTC
Oct 02 20:39:45 <mpeel>	"Begin negotiations with WMF" is set for the 26th Oct; is there any reason why that can't start immediately after the application to company house has been submitted?
Oct 02 20:40:19 <cfp>	yes i agree.
Oct 02 20:40:28 <AndrewRT>	i agree to
Oct 02 20:40:30 <AndrewRT>	too
Oct 02 20:40:39 <AndrewRT>	subject to this change could this be dopted?
Oct 02 20:40:55 <KTC>	someone mentioned something about you can't negoniate a contract with wmf until we're a company
Oct 02 20:41:22 <Warofdreams>	I hope that we can submit the Mem/Arts on 11th, but that may depend on the outcome of our next discussion
Oct 02 20:41:24 <AndrewRT>	we cant sign certainly
Oct 02 20:41:52 <cfp>	i still think we should wait to hear back from hmrc before opening an account. it would almost certainly make the process smoother.
Oct 02 20:41:58 <AndrewRT>	but i'd hope to start discussions based on the submissions and then be able to sign when the incorps come back
Oct 02 20:42:04 <Warofdreams>	I can't see why we couldn't enter in to negotiations
Oct 02 20:42:23 <AndrewRT>	hmrc - perhaps - should we cross that bridge then?
Oct 02 20:42:25 *	effeietsanders has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Oct 02 20:42:36 <KTC>	cfp, you can't open a community account (basically what we want but may differ in name) until you're at least a company
Oct 02 20:42:45 <KTC>	*community bank account
Oct 02 20:43:08 <cfp>	yeah. the issue is whether it would help to be a "charity for tax purposes"
Oct 02 20:43:27 <mpeel>	so is the HMRC bit a sort of add-on to the bank account once we have it, rather than something required to open the type of bank account we'll need?
Oct 02 20:43:50 <KTC>	i think barclays (for example) would want at least a HMRC letter 
Oct 02 20:43:57 *	effeietsanders (n=chatzill@wikimedia/effeietsanders) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:44:24 <AndrewRT>	Tango has done some research on this - can we ask him to look into this for us and report back?
Oct 02 20:44:38 <AndrewRT>	i should say research on bank accounts
Oct 02 20:44:49 <cfp>	it very much depends on what kind of account we want. with e.g. nationwide's community accounts i got the impression it would help. with a standard corporate account there'd be no issue.
Oct 02 20:45:05 <cfp>	but we'd have to change account types once we got the hmrc thing
Oct 02 20:45:18 <Warofdreams>	Tango says ">	From my talks with banks, I think the HMRC letter is only needed to avoid being taxed on interest. They can tell you are a charity by looking at the Mem&Arts"
Oct 02 20:45:31 <KTC>	i don't see a problem with "beginning" to open an account with a bank once we're a company
Oct 02 20:45:39 *	cary (n=lichen@wikimedia/Bastique) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 20:45:41 <KTC>	they may or may not want more information
Oct 02 20:45:50 <KTC>	but that's soemthing they'll let us know
Oct 02 20:46:17 *	ChanServ gives voice to Tango42
Oct 02 20:46:35 <Tango42>	I'll take that as being invited to the meeting by the chair - thank you!
Oct 02 20:46:42 <AndrewRT>	Tango, what have you found by your discussions with banks?
Oct 02 20:47:15 <Tango42>	Information the banks will require: Mem&Arts, minutes of the meeting appointing officers and agreeing to open an account with details of who will be signatories, two forms of ID from each signatory
Oct 02 20:47:18 <Tango42>	I think that's about it.
Oct 02 20:47:33 <Tango42>	(One ID with address on)
Oct 02 20:47:33 <AndrewRT>	no HMRC letter?
Oct 02 20:47:52 <Tango42>	According to at least bank, they only need that if you want to avoid tax on interest
Oct 02 20:48:02 <Tango42>	I don't think I asked the others explicitly
Oct 02 20:48:05 <AndrewRT>	thanks
Oct 02 20:48:21 <Warofdreams>	would there be any problem in submitting an HMRC letter after setting up the account?
Oct 02 20:48:21 <Tango42>	I haven't seen it mentioned in any of the literature I got, though, so I doubt any others want it either.
Oct 02 20:48:32 <Tango42>	According to the one bank I spoke to about it, no
Oct 02 20:48:41 <cfp>	the guy i spoke to at hsbc seemed to think we would need the hmrc thing.
Oct 02 20:48:52 <cfp>	though admittedly he didn't seem massively clued up.
Oct 02 20:49:08 <Tango42>	To be honest, some of the people I spoke to were a little unsure about how incorporated charities worked
Oct 02 20:49:34 <AndrewRT>	thanks for your help Tango
Oct 02 20:49:35 <Tango42>	I have the HSBC leaflet here, one moment
Oct 02 20:49:35 <cfp>	i'm happy for the date to stay it is, just as long as the liberal interpretation of "start" is applied if it does turn out we need that hmrc thing.
Oct 02 20:49:50 <AndrewRT>	i second cfp's suggestion
Oct 02 20:50:04 <Warofdreams>	I support that proposal
Oct 02 20:50:06 <AndrewRT>	bear in mind the whole timetable will have to be tweaked as we go through anyway
Oct 02 20:50:14 <AndrewRT>	some things will take longer than we expect
Oct 02 20:50:23 <AndrewRT>	who knows some things may actually take less time :)
Oct 02 20:51:34 <KTC>	we've made the elect board officier early for one ;)
Oct 02 20:51:44 <Warofdreams>	mike, KTC, are you happy with the proposals?
Oct 02 20:52:05 <mpeel>	I'm also happy for that date to stay as it is, so long as we generally acknowledge that these are target dates rather than absolute deadlines.
Oct 02 20:52:10 <Tango42>	(No mention of anything relevant on the HSBC leaflet or application form)
Oct 02 20:52:27 <AndrewRT>	I've amended http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Timeline#Some_Changes per mpeel's earlier comments
Oct 02 20:52:56 <AndrewRT>	I'm happy for them to be "target dates"
Oct 02 20:53:22 <Warofdreams>	KTC, are you happy with the proposed timeline, on the proviso that it provides target dates?
Oct 02 20:53:23 <mpeel>	The other point I wanted to raise was that we are currently aiming to hold the AGM on a Thursday. Is that the best day for it?
Oct 02 20:53:27 <KTC>	i take "* The further in the future a planned date is, the more liable it is to be changed." to heart ;)
Oct 02 20:53:54 <Warofdreams>	I can guarantee that Thursday is not the best day.
Oct 02 20:53:56 <KTC>	yes, i'm happy with it, as a guide to where we should be. sometime we are early and sometime late
Oct 02 20:53:56 <cfp>	my other objection to that timeline is the inclusion of deliberate time between finishing all the admin and starting accepting supporting applications and announcing the agm. sure we might not want the agm to be on jan 3rd or whatever, but if we are by some miracle ahead of schedule stuff could go through a lot quicker.
Oct 02 20:54:26 <mpeel>	perhaps things like the AGM should be "week commencing ..." rather than a set date?
Oct 02 20:54:45 <KTC>	yes, right around new year isn't such a good idea even if we make that date
Oct 02 20:55:21 <Warofdreams>	does the AGM have to be a physical meeting?  I've never known it not to be, but could we hold it on IRC if we chose?
Oct 02 20:55:31 <mpeel>	cfp, the meta page states that "if we have not processed more than 95% of the membership applications received more than one month before the AGM ... [insert dire consequences here as described on the meta page]"
Oct 02 20:55:31 <AndrewRT>	Bank account opens 1 Dec, start accepting supporters 2 Dec
Oct 02 20:55:50 <mpeel>	cfp, so we need some breathing space in there.
Oct 02 20:56:23 <Warofdreams>	agreed - if we're running amazingly ahead of schedule, we can always discuss this again in a month
Oct 02 20:56:25 <cfp>	the requirement is that by the time of the agm, we have to have processed 95% of the membership apps received by one month before the agm
Oct 02 20:56:40 <cfp>	i wrote that sentence...
Oct 02 20:56:55 <Warofdreams>	but I'd rather stick with the aim of mid-January
Oct 02 20:57:00 <cfp>	so there's no particular need for breathing space.
Oct 02 20:57:09 <AndrewRT>	i think we should carry on accepting members after we announce the AGM - this will be big publicity for us
Oct 02 20:57:21 <mpeel>	cfp, ok. I should stop skim-reading things now.
Oct 02 20:58:04 <cfp>	AndrewRT: yup i agree that we should countinue processing apps until as close to the agm as feasible basically.
Oct 02 20:58:11 <AndrewRT>	sorry i'm confused, which date/s are you not happy with
Oct 02 20:58:24 <cfp>	the date of the announcement of the agm.
Oct 02 20:58:33 <cfp>	should be moved back a fortnight in that schedule.
Oct 02 20:58:35 <AndrewRT>	15 Dec - should be earlier?
Oct 02 20:58:50 <cfp>	and then if we are ahead of schedule, potentially the agm itself can be before christmas.
Oct 02 20:59:40 <cfp>	yup i'd move it back to the 2nd.
Oct 02 20:59:52 <AndrewRT>	ok i dont mind that - move to 2nd Dec and AGM to 2nd Jan
Oct 02 21:00:11 <Warofdreams>	is 2nd Jan a good time for the AGM?
Oct 02 21:00:15 <KTC>	no
Oct 02 21:00:32 <mpeel>	I'd suggest week commencing 5 Jan for the AGM in this timeline.
Oct 02 21:00:36 <cfp>	the AGM does not have to be precisely one month after the announcement
Oct 02 21:00:41 <cfp>	(i think)
Oct 02 21:00:44 <KTC>	it doesn't 
Oct 02 21:00:46 <AndrewRT>	it has to be at least 1 month after
Oct 02 21:00:47 <cfp>	just at least one month.
Oct 02 21:00:51 <mpeel>	Announcement of AGM week commencing 1st or 8th Dec.
Oct 02 21:00:55 <KTC>	there's a minimum time from announcement
Oct 02 21:00:58 <cfp>	yup.
Oct 02 21:01:01 <AndrewRT>	so could be 2nd Dec, 7th Jan
Oct 02 21:01:12 <cfp>	then the actual date of the AGM will be decided by convenience
Oct 02 21:01:13 <Warofdreams>	yep, that could work
Oct 02 21:01:34 <AndrewRT>	10th Jan is saturday so possibly good date to pencil in
Oct 02 21:01:42 <AndrewRT>	very likely to change though
Oct 02 21:01:51 <AndrewRT>	if we hit any delays
Oct 02 21:02:06 <KTC>	right, let's pencil in a working date, noting things could change as we appropach it
Oct 02 21:02:12 <cfp>	apparently it's 21 days (thanks Tango), so if we are ahead of schedule that makes pre-christmas more feasible in a magic ideal world.
Oct 02 21:02:34 <AndrewRT>	only just - 23rd Dec
Oct 02 21:02:43 <AndrewRT>	I'm afriad I'm busy that day!
Oct 02 21:02:51 <KTC>	finding a room at 1 month notice pre christmas is going to be fun....
Oct 02 21:02:57 <mpeel>	there's always the 24th dec. ;-)
Oct 02 21:03:19 <cfp>	haha. me too. but we could easily be 3 weeks ahead of schedule in a perfect world. no point debating it now though, so i'll shut up.
Oct 02 21:03:23 <Warofdreams>	I'm sure we'll be returning to the timetable in future meetings, as things change, so provided we're happy with the immediate items and the general sweep
Oct 02 21:03:38 <AndrewRT>	for the time being, can i suggest 2nd Dec and 7th Jan
Oct 02 21:03:41 <Warofdreams>	we can celebrate being three weeks ahead of schedule late!
Oct 02 21:03:46 <Warofdreams>	_later_
Oct 02 21:03:47 <KTC>	right, let's move on, unless someone have major objection
Oct 02 21:03:51 <KTC>	AndrewRT, yes
Oct 02 21:04:28 <Warofdreams>	ok, what's the next item?
Oct 02 21:04:43 <AndrewRT>	while we're on timetable - could we arrange a schedule of meetings?
Oct 02 21:04:50 <KTC>	*point* that
Oct 02 21:05:23 <KTC>	the suggestion was weekly online on irc 
Oct 02 21:05:39 <AndrewRT>	i second weekly irc
Oct 02 21:05:39 <cfp>	8pm is a little early for me perhaps.
Oct 02 21:05:41 <Warofdreams>	could they be on a night other than Thursdays?
Oct 02 21:05:49 <Warofdreams>	any other weeknight would be better for me
Oct 02 21:06:03 <KTC>	monday or tuesday night ?
Oct 02 21:06:04 <AndrewRT>	my weak preference is a weekend and 8pm or later
Oct 02 21:06:20 <AndrewRT>	cfp - what time wld u prefer?
Oct 02 21:06:47 <cfp>	8:30 or 9:00?
Oct 02 21:06:59 <KTC>	AndrewRT, for the immediate short term, i can't do weekend evenings
Oct 02 21:07:17 <KTC>	kinda reverse of (i guess) everyone, free during the day, mostly busy at night
Oct 02 21:07:27 <AndrewRT>	ok i can also do weekday as long as it's 8pm or later
Oct 02 21:07:42 <AndrewRT>	unless i dial in from work
Oct 02 21:07:49 <cfp>	i will have marking to do one/two nights a week, but i'm not sure quite when yet, so i'm happy with any evening for now, but i reserve the right to beg to reschedule...
Oct 02 21:07:55 <AndrewRT>	(I could look into that if need be)
Oct 02 21:07:58 <Warofdreams>	ok, so Mon or Tue at 20:30?
Oct 02 21:08:07 *	wknight8111 has quit (Client Quit)
Oct 02 21:08:25 <AndrewRT>	Mon/Tue 8:30 is good for me
Oct 02 21:08:34 <AndrewRT>	coudl we keep them to an hour long?
Oct 02 21:08:52 <KTC>	AndrewRT, i sure we will all try to keep it as short as possible
Oct 02 21:09:00 <Warofdreams>	we really should be able to, provided they are weekly and we communicate on the mailing list
Oct 02 21:09:02 <KTC>	remember a lot can be talked about by email
Oct 02 21:09:09 <Warofdreams>	naturally the first meeting has more to discuss
Oct 02 21:09:12 <cfp>	well things take as long as they take. but we can still be as quick as possible.
Oct 02 21:09:43 <KTC>	mpeel,  ?
Oct 02 21:09:45 <Warofdreams>	it's always possible to set a time limit for each section, but it really shouldn't be necessary for meetings of five people
Oct 02 21:09:46 <AndrewRT>	i agree - lets try to discuss as much as possible on the email list and meta and then we're ready to make decisions when we get to the Board meeting
Oct 02 21:10:18 *	ChanServ removes voice from Tango42
Oct 02 21:10:30 <mpeel>	mon/tue evening is fine with me, although if I get a clear night sky here any evening I'm liable to be away from my computer.
Oct 02 21:10:51 <KTC>	uk, clear night sky? :D
Oct 02 21:10:54 <cfp>	anyone have a preference between mon and tue?
Oct 02 21:10:55 <KTC>	sure
Oct 02 21:11:07 <KTC>	*that's a sure i understand mpeel
Oct 02 21:11:15 <Warofdreams>	ok, I propose Tuesdays at 20:30, that way we can all confirm at the weekend or on Monday, whichever suits us best
Oct 02 21:11:28 <cfp>	sounds sensible.
Oct 02 21:11:28 <mpeel>	KTC: I'm an astronomer, and I have students I need to teach how to use a telescope...
Oct 02 21:11:30 <AndrewRT>	i second Tuesdays 20:30
Oct 02 21:12:08 <AndrewRT>	KTC can u do that?
Oct 02 21:12:44 <KTC>	mpeel, i was a physics student, i know what you meant :)
Oct 02 21:12:55 <KTC>	AndrewRT, okay
Oct 02 21:13:07 <AndrewRT>	is that decided then?
Oct 02 21:13:22 <KTC>	yes. next
Oct 02 21:14:00 <Warofdreams>	KTC: is it Mem/Arts next?
Oct 02 21:14:00 <AndrewRT>	KTC - could you stick details of these meetings on meta and come up with draft agendas based on the timetable?
Oct 02 21:14:09 <KTC>	quick discussion on whether we are happy with release of the votes and or who voted
Oct 02 21:14:10 <mpeel>	should we decide on announcement of board meetings / availability of agenda before and minutes after, or is that a given?
Oct 02 21:14:39 <KTC>	AndrewRT, i will do
Oct 02 21:14:44 <AndrewRT>	thanks KTC
Oct 02 21:15:08 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - i think it's a given, shall we see how it goes otherwise we'll be here all night!
Oct 02 21:15:22 <AndrewRT>	KTC - I don't think the Board should intervene
Oct 02 21:15:32 <AndrewRT>	leave it up to teh elections committee to decide
Oct 02 21:15:37 <Warofdreams>	I don't see that we could release who voted; I can't see a problem with releasing the vote tallies, but there's the question whether there's any point
Oct 02 21:15:47 <KTC>	AndrewRT, they say leave it up to the community *rolleyes*
Oct 02 21:15:50 <Warofdreams>	the elections committee seem keen to leave it to the community
Oct 02 21:15:57 <AndrewRT>	you're joking!
Oct 02 21:16:38 <AndrewRT>	in that case i think the norm is to release a list of who voted and the full results of who received what
Oct 02 21:16:43 <KTC>	do members have any personal preference either way ?
Oct 02 21:16:47 <AndrewRT>	i think we should do the same
Oct 02 21:17:01 <AndrewRT>	of course not saying who voted whcih way
Oct 02 21:17:37 <cfp>	(btw: just finished reading the full coop community account application form, and it seems that MoA/AoA is all that's required to prove charitability. sorry!)
Oct 02 21:18:31 <cfp>	i have a weak preference for releasing them.
Oct 02 21:18:35 <KTC>	cfp, cool :)
Oct 02 21:18:48 <AndrewRT>	thanks for the update cfp
Oct 02 21:18:59 <mpeel>	I have no preference
Oct 02 21:19:05 <KTC>	i have no preference
Oct 02 21:19:14 <KTC>	Warofdreams, you don't like the idea of who voted ?
Oct 02 21:20:11 <Warofdreams>	I don't see the advantage; there's an argument that without any knowledge before the fact that any sort of individual info - even the fact they'd voted - would be released, we shouldn't do it
Oct 02 21:20:17 <AndrewRT>	I'm not too concerned about who voted - although it could be useful if we needed to look into socking
Oct 02 21:20:28 <AndrewRT>	i take mickey's argument
Oct 02 21:20:42 <AndrewRT>	therefore, i propose releaes full results but no list of voters
Oct 02 21:21:07 <KTC>	okay, we'll purpose that to the community and see if anyone object
Oct 02 21:21:07 <cfp>	i have no objection to list of voters remaining private.
Oct 02 21:21:44 <AndrewRT>	and if someone does object bring it back here?
Oct 02 21:22:49 <KTC>	AndrewRT, discuss it on uk-l 
Oct 02 21:22:53 <KTC>	then maybe
Oct 02 21:24:00 <KTC>	right, the most important bit
Oct 02 21:24:03 <KTC>	Mem&Arts
Oct 02 21:24:24 <AndrewRT>	sorry what was decided on the voters lists?
Oct 02 21:25:12 <AndrewRT>	Mem&Arts then
Oct 02 21:25:15 <KTC>	purpose to the community that who voted remain private, but make public of who got how many votes
Oct 02 21:25:28 <AndrewRT>	ok i'm fine with that
Oct 02 21:25:31 <Warofdreams>	support KTC
Oct 02 21:25:35 <AndrewRT>	M&A
Oct 02 21:25:57 <AndrewRT>	My view is there are lots of details that I'd like to discuss before deciding on them
Oct 02 21:26:18 <cfp>	i think it'd be helpful for us to at least map out the issues now.
Oct 02 21:26:19 <AndrewRT>	I propose we agree the high level outline (charitable company limited by guarantee)
Oct 02 21:26:33 <AndrewRT>	arrange an intensive discussion on the wmuk-l
Oct 02 21:26:50 <AndrewRT>	and then have a draft to vote on at the next meeting on 7th October
Oct 02 21:27:21 <AndrewRT>	so we can meet the timetable date of 11th October for submission to ChapCom
Oct 02 21:27:57 <Warofdreams>	I agree with both; which areas might we need to focus discussion on?
Oct 02 21:28:54 <AndrewRT>	Charity - two options, either a charity or a campaigning organisation
Oct 02 21:29:20 <AndrewRT>	Consensus seems to be charity (rationale here: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Candidate_FAQs#Why_do_we_intend_to_register_the_UK_Chapter_as_a_Charity.3F)
Oct 02 21:29:37 <AndrewRT>	incorporation - two options - CLG or association
Oct 02 21:29:44 <cfp>	i don't think WOD was objecting to being a CLG
Oct 02 21:29:55 <AndrewRT>	Consensus seems to be CLG per rationale here http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Candidate_FAQs#Why_have_we_decided_to_use_a_Company_Limited_by_Guarantee_structure_for_the_Chapter.3F
Oct 02 21:30:20 <AndrewRT>	am i right to presume everyone agrees with these?
Oct 02 21:30:24 <Warofdreams>	cfp: not objecting to anything
Oct 02 21:30:24 <cfp>	it really is the only sensible option at least until the new form of incorporated charity is available.
Oct 02 21:30:34 <Warofdreams>	yes, definitely the sensible option
Oct 02 21:30:42 <AndrewRT>	KTC, mpeel?
Oct 02 21:31:05 <mpeel>	charity + CLG seems fine to me.
Oct 02 21:31:14 <KTC>	yes
Oct 02 21:31:38 <AndrewRT>	cfp - what issues do you think we shoudl map out now?
Oct 02 21:32:38 <cfp>	umm board size, elections, permanent positions, arrangements for compensation
Oct 02 21:33:41 <cfp>	provisions to allow electronic meetings
Oct 02 21:34:14 <cfp>	objects
Oct 02 21:34:21 <AndrewRT>	are any of these contentious?
Oct 02 21:34:42 <Warofdreams>	objects might be contentious.  Definitely needs more discussion.
Oct 02 21:34:52 <Warofdreams>	Discussion on e-mail.
Oct 02 21:35:50 <AndrewRT>	I second discuss on email
Oct 02 21:35:53 <cfp>	oook
Oct 02 21:36:00 <KTC>	is there anything anyone want to mention about M&A now ?
Oct 02 21:36:04 *	privatemusings (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/privatemusings) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Oct 02 21:36:18 <cfp>	just that we have to get it right...
Oct 02 21:36:35 <AndrewRT>	i'd rather we take our time on it than rush these things
Oct 02 21:36:54 <AndrewRT>	and also discuss and decide with the whole community, not just us five
Oct 02 21:37:42 <Warofdreams>	yes.  we need to make sure that the discussion is had asap, ideally reaching conclusion for meeting on Tuesday.
Oct 02 21:37:56 <AndrewRT>	i agree with mickey
Oct 02 21:38:31 <AndrewRT>	in that case can we move onto AOB?
Oct 02 21:38:31 <mpeel>	Perhaps we should arrange for an in-IRC discussion session about them some time in the next week, to help speed things up?
Oct 02 21:39:01 <KTC>	okay, let's collaborativly (look over at #wikimedia-uk) edit [[Wikimedia UK v2.0/MoA]] & [[Wikimedia UK v2.0/AoA]] and discuss on Talk & uk-l
Oct 02 21:39:05 <AndrewRT>	next meeting is only five days away!
Oct 02 21:39:05 <KTC>	about any changes
Oct 02 21:40:01 <cfp>	i'll try to persuade my tame-barrister to monitor the mailing list for the next few days.
Oct 02 21:40:18 <cfp>	i'm seeing him on sat anyway.
Oct 02 21:40:20 <KTC>	AoB ?
Oct 02 21:40:23 <KTC>	thanks cfp
Oct 02 21:40:24 <AndrewRT>	yes that wld be very useful thanks cfp
Oct 02 21:41:00 <mpeel>	ok, AoB.
Oct 02 21:41:22 <AndrewRT>	I have two things I'm afraid
Oct 02 21:41:27 <AndrewRT>	CRB checks
Oct 02 21:41:44 <KTC>	okay, what about it?
Oct 02 21:41:49 <cfp>	you object to them?
Oct 02 21:41:59 <AndrewRT>	there was a discussion on the list about getting the mem sec to do one if we have u16/u18 members
Oct 02 21:42:22 <AndrewRT>	coudl we ask mike to do some reseracg and come back to the next mtg with a suggestion
Oct 02 21:42:44 <AndrewRT>	i think we should do this early as pos as it can take a while!
Oct 02 21:43:00 <Warofdreams>	in my experience, it wouldn't be a legal requirement.  but it would be very wise.
Oct 02 21:43:27 <AndrewRT>	Agenda for next time?
Oct 02 21:43:33 <mpeel>	Does anyone have a feel for whether we will be accepting u18/u16 members?
Oct 02 21:44:06 <AndrewRT>	personally i think we should - maybe discuss on elist in context of M&Arts?
Oct 02 21:44:18 <mpeel>	If we will be, then I should probably be CRB checked - but I'll go and do research on that prior to the next meeting, and will report back about it.
Oct 02 21:44:29 <cfp>	i presume that this is an issue means there's no legal problem with it, in which case i think we should. a lot of wiki users/editers are young.
Oct 02 21:44:33 <KTC>	i wouldn't want it in M&A, but as rules / policy of the board
Oct 02 21:44:46 <Warofdreams>	KTC: yes
Oct 02 21:45:40 <AndrewRT>	I should clarify: age requirement of members could possibly be in Mem&Arts
Oct 02 21:45:48 <KTC>	yes
Oct 02 21:46:07 <AndrewRT>	And last thing - fundraising
Oct 02 21:46:16 <AndrewRT>	Forming the company could cost ~£100
Oct 02 21:46:19 <cfp>	?
Oct 02 21:46:31 <AndrewRT>	if we start asking for legal advice and stuff
Oct 02 21:46:49 <AndrewRT>	shoudl we start fundraising cash now? possibly at wikimeets?
Oct 02 21:46:59 <AndrewRT>	or better to wait until we hav a bank ac?
Oct 02 21:47:25 <cfp>	i doubt anyone would give us money before we're even set up.
Oct 02 21:47:25 <KTC>	i'm not conviced people will be giving us money before we are 1. a charity, 2. a chapter, 3. a bank account etc.
Oct 02 21:47:36 <KTC>	*1. a company
Oct 02 21:47:43 <cfp>	it would be better for the five us to lend the company the money between us.
Oct 02 21:48:06 <AndrewRT>	ok
Oct 02 21:48:11 <AndrewRT>	lets drop that then
Oct 02 21:48:13 <cfp>	there are explicit provisions about directors lending the company money in the MoA
Oct 02 21:48:28 <cfp>	well not quite yet
Oct 02 21:48:29 <Warofdreams>	yes.  however, if we can get a promise of money for when we have an account, great
Oct 02 21:48:31 <AndrewRT>	lucky directors!
Oct 02 21:48:32 <cfp>	where did you get £100
Oct 02 21:48:36 <KTC>	"A Director may receive interest on money lent to the charity at a
Oct 02 21:48:36 <KTC>	        reasonable and proper rate which must be 2% (or more) per annum below
Oct 02 21:48:36 <KTC>	        the base rate of a clearing bank to be selected by the Directors. 
Oct 02 21:48:36 <KTC>	"
Oct 02 21:48:48 <AndrewRT>	£20 is for Company Formation fee
Oct 02 21:48:49 <cfp>	"The standard registration fee is £20. We will incorporate the company in eight to ten working days after we receive the documents. If you need to form the company quickly, we offer a Same Day Incorporation service, the registration fee for which is £50.00 and must be correctly received before 15.00 hrs."
Oct 02 21:49:05 <cfp>	yes i was going to say. where's the other £80?
Oct 02 21:49:34 <AndrewRT>	a few quid for postage
Oct 02 21:49:43 <AndrewRT>	lawyers - will they be free?
Oct 02 21:49:44 <Warofdreams>	I agree with Tango: "I think a formal loan is unnecessary, just do it as an expenses claim".
Oct 02 21:49:53 <Warofdreams>	they'd better be
Oct 02 21:50:03 <Warofdreams>	we can't afford any paid legal advice at the moment
Oct 02 21:50:11 <mpeel>	another Tango quote: "If you want formal legal advice it will cost £1000s, I exchanged emails with a specialist solicitor about it"
Oct 02 21:50:18 <AndrewRT>	ok fine - lets just want till the bank account is set up and then reimburse costs afterwards
Oct 02 21:50:42 <cfp>	as long as we don't deviate to far from the model AoA and MoA even without my friends oversight we should be ok.
Oct 02 21:50:44 <AndrewRT>	good job cfp has a barrister friend!
Oct 02 21:51:00 <Warofdreams>	don't forget we should register with the data controller - easy, but another expense
Oct 02 21:51:11 <cfp>	data controller???
Oct 02 21:51:17 <KTC>	oh
Oct 02 21:51:19 <KTC>	yes
Oct 02 21:51:24 <cfp>	who/which is?
Oct 02 21:51:25 <KTC>	data protection act
Oct 02 21:51:30 <cfp>	oh right.
Oct 02 21:52:20 <AndrewRT>	something else for mike to look into? ;)
Oct 02 21:52:28 <AndrewRT>	being mem sec
Oct 02 21:52:31 <KTC>	oh right, that was what i was going to say
Oct 02 21:52:41 <mpeel>	ok
Oct 02 21:52:43 <KTC>	any expense should be noted down by the tres
Oct 02 21:52:50 <mpeel>	Is there also an expense in getting signing witnessed?
Oct 02 21:52:55 <KTC>	so there's a clear record
Oct 02 21:53:01 <Warofdreams>	I filled one out about a year ago, should have details to hand
Oct 02 21:53:06 <KTC>	mpeel, yes, but AndrewRT <AndrewRT> i have a jp friend who will do the swears for free
Oct 02 21:53:10 <AndrewRT>	i have a friendly JP who can witness teh company formation forms
Oct 02 21:53:16 <AndrewRT>	my father in law!
Oct 02 21:53:20 <KTC>	lol
Oct 02 21:53:22 <cfp>	cool.
Oct 02 21:53:30 <Warofdreams>	excellent.
Oct 02 21:53:37 <AndrewRT>	i think we're there!
Oct 02 21:53:37 <mpeel>	ok, great
Oct 02 21:53:48 <Warofdreams>	for the minutes - it's 21:52
Oct 02 21:53:56 <KTC>	right, for the record, what are each of us doing for next week?
Oct 02 21:54:33 <Warofdreams>	I'm circulating minutes ASAP and checking info on the data controller.
Oct 02 21:54:37 <mpeel>	me: investigating CRB checks and DPA
Oct 02 21:54:48 <AndrewRT>	Me & all - identifying issues/options for Mem & Arts on the elist
Oct 02 21:54:59 <cfp>	me same as andrewrt
Oct 02 21:55:16 <AndrewRT>	KTC - draft agendas for forthcoming meetings
Oct 02 21:55:19 <KTC>	:)
Oct 02 21:55:39 <KTC>	cool cool, we're done :)
Oct 02 21:55:43 <AndrewRT>	well, thanks everyone for a good meeting
Oct 02 21:55:55 <AndrewRT>	personally I'm very happy with how it went
Oct 02 21:55:56 <Warofdreams>	yes, thanks everyone.  Here's to a shorter meeting on Tuesday!
Oct 02 21:56:00 <mpeel>	Warofdreams, are you intending on circulating the logs, or written minutes?
Oct 02 21:56:03 <KTC>	hear hear Warofdreams 
Oct 02 21:56:05 <AndrewRT>	i think we got quite a bit done
Oct 02 21:56:21 <mpeel>	2 hours isn't bad for a first meeting.
Oct 02 21:56:24 <AndrewRT>	i suggest minutes only needs to record the decisions and reasons
Oct 02 21:56:35 <AndrewRT>	unless anyone else disagrees
Oct 02 21:56:43 <Warofdreams>	Given the length of the meeting, I want to write up minutes.
Oct 02 21:56:45 <KTC>	minute should be actual minute like
Oct 02 21:56:51 <KTC>	esp for this meeting
Oct 02 21:57:05 <KTC>	i can put up the chat log on my server
Oct 02 21:57:05 <Warofdreams>	AndrewRT: should also minute what we've formally recorded
Oct 02 21:57:22 <KTC>	if people really feel like downloading and reading it
Oct 02 21:57:24 <Warofdreams>	KTC: but I agree that it'd be good to summarise the discussion, at least for this meeting
Oct 02 21:57:33 <AndrewRT>	right I'm off - look forward to discussions on email list!
Oct 02 21:58:39 <KTC>	bye AndrewRT 
Oct 02 21:58:54 <mpeel>	g'night AndrewRT
Oct 02 21:58:58 <Warofdreams>	I'm off too.  Bye everyone.

#wikimedia-uk

Oct 02 20:07:55 <LiquidChild>	why this one?
Oct 02 20:08:17 <KTC_>	mpeel, yes, but fn policy (i think) mean it need to be stated when i happened for it to be public later
Oct 02 20:08:41 <mpeel>	ok. It should be stated in the other channel too, then.
Oct 02 20:08:47 <KTC>	it is
Oct 02 20:09:31 <KTC>	LiquidChild, i guess cause this is the channel where peoples comments are going to be during the meeting
Oct 02 20:09:31 <mpeel>	ah, I missed that bit.
Oct 02 20:10:00 <Tango42>	I don't know if anything interesting will be said here, but in case it is it would be good to have logs
Oct 02 20:10:21 *	schiste (n=Ter@80.125.172.58) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Oct 02 20:10:29 <Tango42>	At the very least it will enable us to point out that we did warn the board of something and it's entirely their fault they didn't listen ;)
Oct 02 20:10:30 *	schiste is curious
Oct 02 20:10:30 <schiste>	Heya :)
Oct 02 20:11:04 <KTC_>	hi
Oct 02 20:11:17 <wknight8111>	if nobody wants to be chair, they're going to have to force somebody to do it!
Oct 02 20:11:18 <Tango42>	hi
Oct 02 20:11:54 <Tango42>	Reminds me of the House of Commons - it's traditional to drag the new speaker to their chair because no-one wanted to be the one that had to report bad news to the King
Oct 02 20:11:55 <Mbimmler>	hi from here as well - looks like we're all curious ;-)  (yay for open and transparent board meetings)
Oct 02 20:12:03 <schiste>	:D
Oct 02 20:12:20 <Tango42>	Congrats KTC!
Oct 02 20:12:24 <Mbimmler>	well, they found their victim now, apparently. congrats KTC
Oct 02 20:12:34 <Mbimmler>	and all the best with your new role!
Oct 02 20:12:35 <schiste>	:D
Oct 02 20:12:38 <schiste>	Poor of him :)
Oct 02 20:12:45 <KTC_>	i know schiste :D
Oct 02 20:12:48 <KTC_>	and thanks
Oct 02 20:13:06 <schiste>	^^
Oct 02 20:13:12 <schiste>	But congrats anyway
Oct 02 20:14:40 <Mbimmler>	is this usual in the UK? that the treasurer is focused on fundraising as 'opposed' to accounting? In switzerland, I would consider accounting to be the treasurer's core job
Oct 02 20:15:19 <AndrewRT>	for a charity yes
Oct 02 20:15:25 <Tango42>	Really?
Oct 02 20:15:35 <Tango42>	I would think the main job of a treasurer is the handle the accounts
Oct 02 20:15:36 <AndrewRT>	Treasurer manages the bank account but that's not really too onerous
Oct 02 20:15:38 <schiste>	Same in france
Oct 02 20:15:44 <AndrewRT>	we need an external accountant to prepare teh accounts
Oct 02 20:15:46 <Tango42>	For a small charity to no paid accountants, that is
Oct 02 20:15:56 <wknight8111>	"in no one else wants to do it" is practically the motto!
Oct 02 20:16:00 <Warofdreams>	the tres will need to be competent to present the accounts, but Andrew's already offered to assist with that
Oct 02 20:16:03 <Mbimmler>	AndrewRT: interesting. we always thought outside accountants is something for when we're ... really big ;-)
Oct 02 20:16:07 <schiste>	Tresasurer is overseeing all the accounting stuff
Oct 02 20:16:09 <wknight8111>	"if no one else wants to do it"*
Oct 02 20:16:17 <Tango42>	Yes, but the treasurer needs to keep everything in order so that the accountant can be given everything at the end of the year
Oct 02 20:16:40 <Tango42>	I think you need an accountant if income is over £10,000 a year
Oct 02 20:16:42 <schiste>	Very same thing in France, outside accountants are useful when you're big
Oct 02 20:16:44 <AndrewRT>	no way! Preparing statutory accounts for a CLG is definitely a job for external accountants
Oct 02 20:16:50 <schiste>	Eurf
Oct 02 20:16:53 <schiste>	Tango42 nope
Oct 02 20:17:07 <schiste>	I think you need an accountant when you have the need of it
Oct 02 20:17:11 <AndrewRT>	not something for a volunteer to do
Oct 02 20:17:23 <Warofdreams>	I mean to present at the AGM, not to prepare them
Oct 02 20:17:31 <Tango42>	By law, the annual accounts need to be signed off by a chartered accountant once you are over a certain size
Oct 02 20:17:38 <schiste>	Tango42 ok
Oct 02 20:17:54 <Tango42>	Under that size, anyone can do it, although having someone qualified do it wouldn't hurt
Oct 02 20:17:55 <schiste>	running a charity in UK seems to be harder than anywhere else ^^
Oct 02 20:18:01 <Mbimmler>	I see, interesting. Are the statutory accounting requirements so complex in the UK? like...compared to GAAP (which we're using) etc.
Oct 02 20:18:18 <Mbimmler>	schiste: my thoughts exactly
Oct 02 20:18:21 <wknight8111>	agreed. I've seen lots of chapters get started, and the UK looks to be the hardest 
Oct 02 20:19:19 <KTC_>	it's actually not bad once up and running
Oct 02 20:19:36 <Tango42>	We're a limited company, that requires doing things properly. You have to file accounts with Companies House every year, those accounts need to be audited if you are over a certain size, etc.
Oct 02 20:19:43 <Tango42>	I expect it's the same in most countries
Oct 02 20:19:58 <Tango42>	For a small charity, it's all very simple, but we hopefully won't be small long
Oct 02 20:20:07 <Mbimmler>	except that in most other countries chapters aren't limited companies (and sometimes, as in CH, don't even need to register)
Oct 02 20:20:07 <schiste>	Not the same in here ^^
Oct 02 20:20:18 <Tango42>	(small is under £5000-£10000 income depending on what you're talking about)
Oct 02 20:20:39 <Tango42>	We don't need to be a limited company, but it just seems the best way to go
Oct 02 20:20:46 <schiste>	We're what we call "association" wich means we doesn't have to officially declare anything
Oct 02 20:20:51 <Mbimmler>	in Switzerland, associations are existing by virtue of their bylaws and a Founding Assembly protocol existing and being signed. 
Oct 02 20:20:56 <schiste>	(well it's about to change)
Oct 02 20:21:10 <Mbimmler>	is this common law vs. civil law (CH is heavily French-influenced), by any chance?
Oct 02 20:21:19 <KTC_>	one can be an unincorpated association (and charity)
Oct 02 20:21:19 <schiste>	In France we have to register in the county office
Oct 02 20:21:31 <KTC_>	just don't want to mess with the liability that arise tho
Oct 02 20:22:24 <Tango42>	Yeah, we could do it that way, but being a limited company means the board aren't liable for the chapter's debts and the chapter can sign contracts in its own right
Oct 02 20:22:37 <Tango42>	It also makes it easier to hire staff if we ever get to that stage
Oct 02 20:22:50 <schiste>	ok
Oct 02 20:23:04 <Mbimmler>	We just defined in our bylaws that all liability can only touch the association's means (as opposed to the means of individual board members), Swiss law seems more convenient in this respect. Though this is kind of moot, since you don't want to establish a Swiss association, so I'll stop these comparisons now
Oct 02 20:23:48 <Tango42>	Interesting - Switzerland has nicer laws for this kind of stuff! Oh well.
Oct 02 20:23:54 *	effeietsanders (n=chatzill@wikimedia/effeietsanders) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Oct 02 20:23:58 <effeietsanders>	yo
Oct 02 20:24:10 <schiste>	oy
Oct 02 20:24:14 <effeietsanders>	could someone put up the agenda for the board meeting in the topic there? :P
Oct 02 20:24:27 <effeietsanders>	for the readers' conveniance :P
Oct 02 20:24:42 <Tango42>	there isn't really an agenda - there was no chair to write one until a few minutes ago!
Oct 02 20:24:59 <KTC_>	someone want to find the link to uk-l mailing that had a proposed one?
Oct 02 20:25:08 <mpeel>	or rather, there were (at least) two agendas, but I don't think we're using either...
Oct 02 20:25:09 <Tango42>	The provisional Agenda is 1) Assign Positions 2) Discuss Mem&Arts 3) AOB, I think.
Oct 02 20:25:29 <Mbimmler>	AOB? help me quickly..
Oct 02 20:25:36 <effeietsanders>	Tango42: well, i dont ask for a detailed agenda :P
Oct 02 20:25:39 <mpeel>	2) discuss timeline, 3) discuss Mem & Arts, 3 Any Other Business
Oct 02 20:25:49 <Mbimmler>	ah
Oct 02 20:26:10 <mpeel>	there was also board operations, which will probably fit in somewhere.
Oct 02 20:26:23 <Warofdreams>	4) Any Other Business
Oct 02 20:26:30 <KTC_>	publication or not of votes
Oct 02 20:26:55 <mpeel>	also something that will fit in somewhere ... presumably when KTC wants to discuss it. :)
Oct 02 20:27:01 <Tango42>	Liaising with HMRC could easily be the treasurer's job
Oct 02 20:28:14 <KTC_>	true
Oct 02 20:28:18 <Tango42>	Remember, having a Secretary is no longer a legal requirement, so there are no jobs which have to be done by the sec
Oct 02 20:29:03 <cfp>	well it certainly makes sense to have most of the paper work being handled by one person. which seems to be broadly the role andrew envisages for himself
Oct 02 20:30:56 <Tango42>	Yes - that has the advantage of being able to keep all the paperwork in one place, which makes handovers much simpler
Oct 02 20:30:56 <AndrewRT>	particularly when we're doing everything remotely
Oct 02 20:31:32 <schiste>	Just my pov
Oct 02 20:31:41 <cfp>	?
Oct 02 20:31:41 <schiste>	But come on guys you're just trying to set up an org
Oct 02 20:31:57 <Tango42>	Board members: Why don't you let the chair decide what order to do things? That's kind of his job...
Oct 02 20:32:16 <schiste>	there's gonna be PLENTY of time to decide who's gonna be the assistant communication officer
Oct 02 20:32:30 <schiste>	Once you'll really exist
Oct 02 20:32:46 <Tango42>	I have to agree with Schist, lots of officers aren't needed at this stage
Oct 02 20:32:46 *	effeietsanders proposes a stroopwafel-officer
Oct 02 20:32:46 <cfp>	schiste: yes, i know it's a little ott, but i'm told there's a rationale behind the bureaucracy. it doesn't hurt in any case.
Oct 02 20:32:58 <cfp>	Tango42: yes, you're right. i was being bad.
Oct 02 20:33:01 <schiste>	It does
Oct 02 20:33:13 <effeietsanders>	a.k.a. moral officer :)
Oct 02 20:33:20 <schiste>	:D
Oct 02 20:33:44 <Tango42>	Got to love everyone supporting the chair's typos...
Oct 02 20:33:58 <Tango42>	Read things before agreeing, guys!
Oct 02 20:34:05 *	KTC_ hide
Oct 02 20:34:38 <Tango42>	You're fine, KTC, everyone makes mistakes, it's the others supporting that's funny
Oct 02 20:35:05 <schiste>	I'm not saying you should do like we do, but WM FR has nobody dedicated to communication/membership officer or anything else apart from chair/sec/tres
Oct 02 20:35:09 <schiste>	And we do just fine
Oct 02 20:35:14 <mpeel>	I've gotten too used to skim-reading the internet. :(
Oct 02 20:35:14 <schiste>	working all together 
Oct 02 20:35:16 <schiste>	As a group
Oct 02 20:35:51 <schiste>	Titles are shiny and nice to have on business cards, but they don't get things done.
Oct 02 20:36:16 <cfp>	yes i suggested a similar approach, but there wasn't much support, so i'm happy to bow to apparent consensus.
Oct 02 20:36:17 <Tango42>	Once we're up and running, it makes sense to have tasks assigned to individual people, but at the moment, I don't see the point. Why have a membership officer months before you're ready to accept membership applications?
Oct 02 20:36:19 <effeietsanders>	schiste: nl neither
Oct 02 20:36:24 <effeietsanders>	oh
Oct 02 20:36:31 <effeietsanders>	you forgot international officer :)
Oct 02 20:36:34 <effeietsanders>	;-)
Oct 02 20:36:41 <effeietsanders>	chapters liason
Oct 02 20:36:59 <schiste>	And coffee machine officer
Oct 02 20:37:06 <Tango42>	We decided a while ago to limit the board to 5 people - they'll have to start doubling up!
Oct 02 20:37:18 <effeietsanders>	i'm serious, chapters liason is useful :)
Oct 02 20:37:22 <Mbimmler>	schiste: hey, new agenda point: decide on the coffee machine brand in the chair's office
Oct 02 20:37:32 <effeietsanders>	and you can add it to the secretary's function :)
Oct 02 20:37:35 <effeietsanders>	or whoevers
Oct 02 20:37:57 *	Tango42 is /so/ glad he's logging all this...
Oct 02 20:38:24 <schiste>	effeietsanders hehe
Oct 02 20:38:43 <schiste>	Or the assistant secretary's trainee
Oct 02 20:38:45 <schiste>	to
Oct 02 20:38:55 <Tango42>	Someone to liaise with other chapters would be good - could be chair's job.
Oct 02 20:39:19 <Tango42>	of course, we're not a chapter yet and won't be for a couple of months at least, I'd expect, so that can probably wait too
Oct 02 20:39:26 <effeietsanders>	Tango42: could be
Oct 02 20:39:31 <KTC_>	the only role there that doesn't have an immediate work is membership, but that one we know we will need
Oct 02 20:39:49 <KTC_>	doesn't mean indiv won't do things that's not their "job title"
Oct 02 20:39:52 <Mbimmler>	it could also be the job of all the board members who are on internal-l... (why the delay in becoming a chapter? surely not because of chapcom, we have a *cough* reputaion of being fast)
Oct 02 20:39:55 <AndrewRT>	that's what u think - I've got something lined up for him already ;)
Oct 02 20:40:02 <KTC_>	:D
Oct 02 20:40:07 <Tango42>	Does press work come under communication? That's one that won't do much yet but will eventually
Oct 02 20:41:02 <schiste>	Mbimmler so we should be speak about ChapCom now? :p
Oct 02 20:41:02 <Tango42>	Mbimmler: It takes time to get incorporated, and more time to do the paperwork of becoming a chapter. I doubt incorporation will be done in less than a month, and signing trademark agreements and things can't start until then
Oct 02 20:41:13 <schiste>	:D
Oct 02 20:41:16 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: eek?
Oct 02 20:41:19 <Tango42>	2 months may be pessimistic, but it will be over a month
Oct 02 20:41:34 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: ah, okay, so it's the "becoming an association" part which delays, not the "becoming a recognised chapter" part. okay
Oct 02 20:41:50 <Tango42>	Mbimmler: Yeah, pretty much
Oct 02 20:42:12 <Tango42>	(pedantic point: We'll be a charitable company, not an association, under UK law they are different things!)
Oct 02 20:42:13 <Mbimmler>	(if I say association, I mean company limited by guarantee, but that's too long to type for me)
Oct 02 20:42:18 <Mbimmler>	yeah, my thoughts...
Oct 02 20:42:25 *	effeietsanders has quit (Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer))
Oct 02 20:42:34 <Tango42>	"CLG" works
Oct 02 20:42:44 <Tango42>	or just "charity"
Oct 02 20:43:34 <AndrewRT>	charity could be a charitable unincorporated association or a CLG
Oct 02 20:43:59 *	effeietsanders (n=chatzill@wikimedia/effeietsanders) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Oct 02 20:44:01 <Tango42>	Yes, but going with a generic name means you can't be wrong!
Oct 02 20:44:06 <Mbimmler>	I'll go for CLG, thanks :)
Oct 02 20:44:50 <Tango42>	From my talks with banks, I think the HMRC letter is only needed to avoid being taxed on interest. They can tell you are a charity by looking at the Mem&Arts
Oct 02 20:45:19 <Tango42>	I only explicitly discussed the matter with one bank, as I recall, but I think the rest were similar
Oct 02 20:45:44 <effeietsanders>	KTC: just give Tango42 +v temp
Oct 02 20:45:45 *	cary (n=lichen@wikimedia/Bastique) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Oct 02 20:45:48 <effeietsanders>	and let him explain directly
Oct 02 20:45:51 <effeietsanders>	:)
Oct 02 20:46:01 <effeietsanders>	works much better in general
Oct 02 20:47:01 <effeietsanders>	:)
Oct 02 20:47:03 <KTC_>	:)
Oct 02 20:47:19 <cary>	Hey KTC
Oct 02 20:47:22 <cary>	how was your birthday
Oct 02 20:47:49 <KTC>	fine thank you :)
Oct 02 20:48:07 <KTC>	nice food, tho not much alchol
Oct 02 20:48:11 <KTC>	maybe next year :D
Oct 02 20:48:17 <cary>	KTC: I need a favor
Oct 02 20:48:19 <KTC>	or next weekend D
Oct 02 20:48:20 <KTC>	* :D
Oct 02 20:48:21 <KTC>	sure
Oct 02 20:48:30 <cary>	Can we have some lovely concise bios on each of the new board members
Oct 02 20:49:05 <mpeel>	cary: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Candidate_statements gives rough bios of everyone.
Oct 02 20:49:06 <cary>	About 3 paragraphs each, evenly divided between real life and wiki life
Oct 02 20:49:25 <KTC>	i'll write something up with what was provided during the election, and then ask everyone to comment on it before sending u it?
Oct 02 20:49:26 <cary>	mpeel, good, you can work from those :)  
Oct 02 20:49:52 <mpeel>	KTC, it's something that should probably be put on the meta, or on our own website later on.
Oct 02 20:50:27 <cary>	Just so each bio is about semi-equal in length and content
Oct 02 20:50:49 *	cary wishes Canada would get on the ball
Oct 02 20:50:52 <KTC>	yes, but i'll want everyone to be happy about the bio before it's publiclly available
Oct 02 20:51:18 <mpeel>	KTC yes, of course: let's discuss it by email.
Oct 02 20:51:26 <Mbimmler>	cary: I'm going to vancouver in spring, I'll try to push them gently in the few months I'm there ;-)
Oct 02 20:51:28 <cary>	KTC: I'm asking for our purposes though :)
Oct 02 20:51:55 <cary>	KTC: the one I want doesn't have to be public yet.  The Foundation wants to know you :)
Oct 02 20:52:02 <cary>	Well, we know YOU already ;)
Oct 02 20:52:26 <KTC>	by know, you mean a photocopy of a driver license with an address that i don't live in anymore? :P
Oct 02 20:55:13 <KTC>	cary, cbass@wikimedia.org ?
Oct 02 20:55:49 <Mbimmler>	cary: is the bio thing new? can't remember submitting one...
Oct 02 20:56:42 <Mbimmler>	*Don't* do the AGM on IRC. It's complicated enough if 5 board members want to talk on IRC. Forget it with a crowd of 20+ members
Oct 02 20:56:59 <Tango42>	Agreed - the AGM should be in person
Oct 02 20:57:05 <Mbimmler>	and folks, you want to see each other once in your life...you know...meetups? have a drink afterwards? 
Oct 02 20:57:29 <Tango42>	It would need to be explicitly stated in the articles that it can be held online if you're going to do it, but I'd advise against it
Oct 02 20:57:38 <Warofdreams>	I'm not proposing it as the best option - just interested whether it's a possibility we should allow for in the Mem/Arts
Oct 02 20:57:42 <KTC>	no no, i'm not going for an online agm
Oct 02 20:57:45 <Tango42>	The articles should allow online board meetings
Oct 02 20:57:45 <KTC>	(personally)
Oct 02 20:58:17 <Tango42>	It would be very unusual to have online AGMs, the charity commission might not be happy with it which would delay registration
Oct 02 20:58:19 <Mbimmler>	I made the experience that a 30min in person board meeting is about 10 times as productive and efficient as a IRC meeting all evening long
Oct 02 20:58:32 <KTC>	online board meeting yes, online community question & answer yes, GM not in a million year
Oct 02 20:58:38 <Mbimmler>	in AGMs, the factor must be some powers higher
Oct 02 20:58:44 <mpeel>	I'm with KTC there: AGM should be in person.
Oct 02 20:59:46 <Warofdreams>	fair enough.  if we wouldn't consider it ever, there's no point in allowing for it
Oct 02 20:59:46 <Tango42>	notification of AGM needs to be 21 clear days in advance
Oct 02 21:00:20 <Tango42>	and I would suggest having the first batch of members approved before then so you can actually notify them, although there is no requirement
Oct 02 21:00:36 <Mbimmler>	which shouldn't be a problem usually because you anyway want to rent a room with beamer etc. more than 21 days ahead...
Oct 02 21:00:59 <Mbimmler>	unless the UK has too many underused cheap meeting rooms ;-)
Oct 02 21:01:28 <Tango42>	I've never tried to book such a place - doing so more than a month in advance would be good, i expect
Oct 02 21:01:43 <Warofdreams>	early-mid Jan should be easy to book a meeting room
Oct 02 21:01:46 <schiste>	In order to hold the AGM you need to be incorporated ? right ?
Oct 02 21:02:01 <mpeel>	If we want to hold the AGM at a uni, then that time period will probably be tricky - exams.
Oct 02 21:03:09 <Tango42>	Yes, there is no point holding an AGM before there is actually a company to have a general meeting of
Oct 02 21:03:21 <Tango42>	I think hotels are the best place for such a meeting
Oct 02 21:03:36 <Tango42>	they'll have suitable rooms for a 20-50 person meeting with AV equipment
Oct 02 21:03:38 <Mbimmler>	true. although unis tend to be cheaper (and mostly even better equipped)
Oct 02 21:03:47 <schiste>	Aren't you discussing the fact that you will hold the AGM when it will be the right time to have it?
Oct 02 21:04:18 <Mbimmler>	if you can rent a seminar room (does this word exist in English) or an auditorium with a beamer and a microphone, you should be set. Plus, you can get heavy discounts if someone studies at the uni in question
Oct 02 21:05:04 <Warofdreams>	yes, depending on numbers; if it looks likely to be 20-30 it should be pretty easy to organise
Oct 02 21:05:27 <schiste>	Or you can go in a restaurant, ask to use a room and eat there after the AGM :)
Oct 02 21:05:30 <Tango42>	Getting discounts would probably require more than a month's notice
Oct 02 21:05:56 <Tango42>	lots of persuasion required, which all takes time
Oct 02 21:06:06 <Mbimmler>	weekly meetings? you must have a lot to discuss (and a lot of spare time) ;-) Mind, there is email too for minor things. But maybe it's worth while for the start phase
Oct 02 21:06:08 <Tango42>	Unis certainly have suitable rooms, as do hotels
Oct 02 21:06:18 <Tango42>	Weekly meetings until set up makes sense - things move quickly
Oct 02 21:06:22 <wknight8111>	meetings can be 15 minute status reports
Oct 02 21:06:29 <wknight8111>	but regular meetings are always important
Oct 02 21:06:45 <wknight8111>	helps to keep people focused and keep the community informed
Oct 02 21:06:48 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: hm, here it is so that if you're a student, you automatically get (heavy) discounts, no matter what kind of thing you want to do in there, whether it's yout study group, uni-related assoc or your rugby team meeting...
Oct 02 21:06:57 <Mbimmler>	or what did you mean by persuasion?
Oct 02 21:07:33 <Tango42>	I can get rooms for free for Uni related stuff, for an external conference it would normally cost money
Oct 02 21:07:35 *	cary is away: auto-away
Oct 02 21:07:58 <wknight8111>	Okay, it's time for me to go. Talk to you guys later
Oct 02 21:08:02 <Tango42>	bye
Oct 02 21:08:07 *	wknight8111 has quit (Client Quit)
Oct 02 21:08:10 <Mbimmler>	wknight8111: hey...you wanted to write this summary
Oct 02 21:08:23 <Mbimmler>	yeah great, now I need to run, otherwise I'll get the job :-)
Oct 02 21:10:20 *	cary is back (gone 00:02:45)
Oct 02 21:10:32 <KTC_>	thanks Tango42 for your input :)
Oct 02 21:10:39 <Tango42>	no prob
Oct 02 21:10:47 <Tango42>	let me know if you need any more
Oct 02 21:11:49 <KTC_>	i'm sure we would like to continue to have your input on everything
Oct 02 21:11:51 <Mbimmler>	no malice implied but what's the ETA for (the end of) this board meeting?
Oct 02 21:11:59 <Warofdreams>	yes, thank you Tango
Oct 02 21:12:03 <KTC_>	*look at "agenda"*
Oct 02 21:12:04 <Mbimmler>	I see a kind of lengthy agenda still to come :-)
Oct 02 21:12:13 <mpeel>	I think we're probably about half way through...
Oct 02 21:12:23 <KTC_>	um, the M&A could take a while
Oct 02 21:12:48 <Tango42>	yeah, this meeting is only just getting started, I fear...
Oct 02 21:12:52 <cary>	Mbimmler, you became a board member of a chapter a long time ago...
Oct 02 21:13:07 <cary>	And this is a simple request
Oct 02 21:13:35 <cary>	KTC: cary@wikimedia.org is fine
Oct 02 21:13:38 <Mbimmler>	cary: huh? enlighten me, I don't want to scroll up to my last question ;-)  Is this about bios?
Oct 02 21:13:51 <cary>	yes
Oct 02 21:14:01 <Mbimmler>	and sure, I'm fine with the request, I just wanted to know whether I missed replying to a similar request I had forgotten
Oct 02 21:14:01 <Tango42>	cary: Neat trick, using one chapter's board meetings to lure in the board members of other chapters so you can chase them up!
Oct 02 21:15:46 <Tango42>	the election committee are leaving it up to you to decide, I think!
Oct 02 21:16:24 <cary>	Tango42, this is a first time request from Sue.  I'm just relaying it :)  UK will probably set a trend
Oct 02 21:16:36 <Tango42>	:)
Oct 02 21:16:36 <cary>	Sadly, you're the only English by default chapter
Oct 02 21:16:45 <cary>	oh, Australia
Oct 02 21:16:46 <cary>	der
Oct 02 21:16:59 <Tango42>	They seem to be getting set up rather slowly from the privatemusings tells me
Oct 02 21:17:01 <KTC_>	canada ?
Oct 02 21:17:04 <KTC_>	:D
Oct 02 21:17:09 <Tango42>	It looks like we'll set up before aus.
Oct 02 21:17:17 <cary>	Canada has stalled
Oct 02 21:18:00 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: honestly, I'm not sure whether you're gonna finish this board meeting before Aus is set up, no offense :-)  (It's always easier if you can just watch and don't need to discuss yourself)
Oct 02 21:18:17 <KTC_>	cary, i'll send it to cbass@wikimedia.org, that way i can test sending an pgp encrypted email for once :D
Oct 02 21:18:18 <Tango42>	The first meeting was always going to be a long on
Oct 02 21:18:19 <Tango42>	e
Oct 02 21:18:46 <schiste>	Well, long is one thing.
Oct 02 21:18:54 <schiste>	About useless things, is another.
Oct 02 21:19:00 <Tango42>	I think we should be able to stick to the rough timetable outlined on meta, which has all the set up down by Christmas
Oct 02 21:19:02 *	schiste is harsh tonight
Oct 02 21:19:12 <cfp>	Mbimmler: ooh that there's fighting talk...
Oct 02 21:19:24 <Tango42>	Useless? That's very harsh... Things seem to be going well from where I'm looking
Oct 02 21:19:43 <Mbimmler>	cfp: hey, look to schiste if you want to see fighting talk :)
Oct 02 21:19:43 <Tango42>	Remember, IRC meetings always take longer than an equivalent IRL meeting
Oct 02 21:20:13 <Mbimmler>	Continental European board members tend to be quite critical
Oct 02 21:20:20 <KTC_>	schiste, i've been to much longer irl meeting that discuss much more useless things ;)
Oct 02 21:20:43 <schiste>	Yeah but come on, what's important tonight?
Oct 02 21:20:51 <schiste>	Getting WMUK 2.0 incorporated
Oct 02 21:20:56 <Tango42>	The election committee is responsible for checking for socks, don't worry about that
Oct 02 21:21:07 <cary>	oh cool
Oct 02 21:21:09 <schiste>	All the other things have to wait till you *really* exists
Oct 02 21:21:22 <schiste>	(no everything else, but nearly)
Oct 02 21:21:25 <cary>	KTC_, I can send you a test encrypted email
Oct 02 21:21:31 <cfp>	do any of you have strong objections to the list of voters remaining private?
Oct 02 21:22:00 <Tango42>	schiste: it's important to get set up correctly, though, otherwise things get difficult latter on - it's best to take the time now to get it right
Oct 02 21:22:05 <Tango42>	No objections from me
Oct 02 21:22:15 <cary>	cfp: I recommend that.  The pool is much smaller than the Foundation's voter list
Oct 02 21:22:16 <effeietsanders>	cfp: voters on people?
Oct 02 21:22:17 <KTC_>	cary, i've got one of those before, from Jon :) hence the fact that your key is trusted :)
Oct 02 21:22:18 <effeietsanders>	they *should* remain private
Oct 02 21:22:25 <effeietsanders>	i guess
Oct 02 21:22:35 <mpeel>	should probably also ask, are there any strong objections to the full results being released?
Oct 02 21:22:59 <cary>	I recommend that too.  I don't see the issue, so long as the election counters are fully trusted.
Oct 02 21:23:12 <schiste>	Tango42 from what I see, it's better for you to get incorporated first
Oct 02 21:23:19 <schiste>	Ok let's put it this way
Oct 02 21:23:24 <schiste>	As far as I know a
Oct 02 21:23:43 <schiste>	most of the current chapters were first incorporated and then spoke of internal organisation
Oct 02 21:23:46 <Tango42>	If you make any mistakes with the incorporation process, it can cause serious problems
Oct 02 21:23:53 <schiste>	and they all work well
Oct 02 21:24:17 <Tango42>	If there are going to be weekly meetings, you need to have a structure in place for minutes and such
Oct 02 21:24:21 <schiste>	nope
Oct 02 21:24:34 <Tango42>	Getting all the officers sorted wasn't really necessary, but everything else is
Oct 02 21:24:40 <schiste>	you need to focus on the fact that what to be done is done
Oct 02 21:24:55 <cfp>	schiste: well we're understandably a bit cautious about getting things right second time around.
Oct 02 21:24:58 <Tango42>	What are you saying "nope" to?
Oct 02 21:25:17 <schiste>	a structure in place for minutes 
Oct 02 21:25:40 <Tango42>	meetings need to be minuted
Oct 02 21:25:43 <schiste>	at the beginning you ask who's willing to take minutes and you're done
Oct 02 21:25:47 <Tango42>	that requires someone to make minutes
Oct 02 21:25:49 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: ad hoc
Oct 02 21:25:56 <Mbimmler>	you just ask around, someone will do it
Oct 02 21:26:01 <effeietsanders>	hmmm, is it my english, or is purpose in this context a weird word?
Oct 02 21:26:03 <Tango42>	that's an extra 5 minutes at the beginning of each meeting
Oct 02 21:26:03 <Mbimmler>	and he doesn't need a business card where it says "Minute taker"
Oct 02 21:26:09 <Tango42>	might as well do it now
Oct 02 21:26:10 <Mbimmler>	no, that's an extra 5 seconds
Oct 02 21:26:10 <KTC_>	effeietsanders, typo
Oct 02 21:26:15 <effeietsanders>	ok :)
Oct 02 21:26:18 <effeietsanders>	pfew
Oct 02 21:26:19 <effeietsanders>	:P
Oct 02 21:26:19 <Tango42>	5 minutes on IRC
Oct 02 21:26:20 <Mbimmler>	if this taked 5 mins, the board has a functional problem
Oct 02 21:26:29 <schiste>	Tango42 ok so you've choosen X to take minutes
Oct 02 21:26:31 <schiste>	ARG
Oct 02 21:26:40 <schiste>	X is not able to come to the 3 next meetings
Oct 02 21:26:45 <schiste>	What are you doing?
Oct 02 21:26:53 <Mbimmler>	because this taking 5 minutes means no one wants to do the job and this means, you've got a problem :)
Oct 02 21:26:55 <schiste>	A / Choosing someone else at the begining
Oct 02 21:26:56 <Tango42>	Choose someone else ad hoc
Oct 02 21:27:13 <schiste>	B / Pick tonight an assistant minute taker
Oct 02 21:27:27 <KTC_>	from personal experience, any volunteer at beginning of meeting is usually met with silence
Oct 02 21:27:42 <schiste>	from personal experience, any volunteer at beginning of meeting is usually met with a "me"
Oct 02 21:27:44 <KTC_>	or the chair can do it if the person elected isn't around... *sigh*
Oct 02 21:28:01 <Mbimmler>	KTC_: I didn't expericence this problem in 3 General Assemblies (AGMs) in a row, plus numerous board meetings
Oct 02 21:28:01 <schiste>	KTC this is useless chatting, thanks to admit it with your sigh
Oct 02 21:28:25 <Mbimmler>	and it was every time another person, never the chair (yeah, doesn't speak for me, I know)
Oct 02 21:28:33 <KTC>	in big meeting, i haven't either, but in regular small meeting all the time
Oct 02 21:29:03 <schiste>	Mbimmler :D
Oct 02 21:29:05 <Tango42>	It's already been decided, so what's the point of discussing it here?
Oct 02 21:29:16 <effeietsanders>	KTC: in the progcom meetings i did never have problems to find someone for making notes
Oct 02 21:29:20 <KTC>	Tango42, cause they're waiting for something else to comment on? :)
Oct 02 21:29:21 <effeietsanders>	if it is on irc
Oct 02 21:29:24 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: we can't anticipate what they will be discussing in the next minutes
Oct 02 21:29:29 <effeietsanders>	irc is easy to make notes
Oct 02 21:29:33 <Tango42>	Did people get my email about M&A suggestions?
Oct 02 21:29:33 <cary>	It's a little out of control
Oct 02 21:29:33 <Mbimmler>	so we necessarily make do with what has been discussed in the immediate past
Oct 02 21:29:35 <effeietsanders>	things go slow anyway
Oct 02 21:29:38 <effeietsanders>	and take hours
Oct 02 21:29:40 <KTC>	effeietsanders, true
Oct 02 21:29:57 <KTC>	Tango42, yes. cary, huh?
Oct 02 21:30:02 <cary>	Creating an agenda is a help, although those are often best done out of the meeting.
Oct 02 21:30:24 <KTC>	cary, the first meeting was always going to be a bit caotic
Oct 02 21:30:27 <Tango42>	The first meeting couldn't have a clear agenda because there was no chair at that point to write one
Oct 02 21:30:28 <KTC>	(spelling)
Oct 02 21:30:33 <Tango42>	chaotic
Oct 02 21:30:34 <KTC>	hopefully it get better from here on
Oct 02 21:30:39 <schiste>	Tango42 you need a chair to write an agenda ? Oo
Oct 02 21:30:42 <KTC>	hey, only 1 letter missing!
Oct 02 21:30:45 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: except that it doesn't need a chair
Oct 02 21:30:48 *	schiste sighs
Oct 02 21:30:48 <Mbimmler>	you could...use a wiki!
Oct 02 21:31:02 <Tango42>	The chair could delegate it to someone else, but it's generally the chair's job
Oct 02 21:31:07 <schiste>	Oo
Oct 02 21:31:10 <schiste>	You're so rigid
Oct 02 21:31:19 <schiste>	Are you really from the wiki world?
Oct 02 21:31:26 <Warofdreams>	schiste: does any of this actually matter?
Oct 02 21:31:29 <Tango42>	Now you're basically suggesting holding a meeting to determine the agenda of a meeting
Oct 02 21:31:49 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: no. you could open a wiki page where every board member lists the points he thinks should be discussed
Oct 02 21:31:56 <Mbimmler>	this worked fine in every case I could think of
Oct 02 21:32:05 <Tango42>	And then how do you conclude a final agenda?
Oct 02 21:32:11 <Tango42>	You need a chair to make the final decision
Oct 02 21:32:14 <schiste>	collaboration
Oct 02 21:32:19 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: the final agenda is what is on the wiki at the time of the start of the meeting
Oct 02 21:32:20 <schiste>	concensus
Oct 02 21:32:29 <Mbimmler>	you just do it by consensus
Oct 02 21:32:30 <schiste>	you know the thing you do everyday on project
Oct 02 21:32:40 <Tango42>	collaboration and consensus mean having a meeting about a meeting
Oct 02 21:32:47 <Tango42>	yes, it's a long drawn out meeting, but it's still a meeting
Oct 02 21:33:10 <Tango42>	Having a chair is an important part of any committee structure, just accept it.
Oct 02 21:33:36 <KTC>	um guys, instead of arguing about all that has happened already
Oct 02 21:33:40 <KTC>	any thoughts on M&A ?
Oct 02 21:33:47 <schiste>	I'm sorry Warofdreams, but it does matter to me. For three years we enjoyed, or not, assisting to the non-existence of WM-UK and were powerless. Now, when we think a brand new WM UK is going to be created. A working WM UK. We see, during the first meeting, a lot of useless things. 
Oct 02 21:33:49 <Tango42>	cfp: board size goes under rules, not M&A
Oct 02 21:33:57 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: you know. I'm on one of these committees. As chair, actually. And I think that we could do without achair. But maybe, something is different in the UK
Oct 02 21:33:57 <schiste>	So yes it matters to me to have a really working WM UK
Oct 02 21:34:00 <Tango42>	as do most of the other things you've mentioned
Oct 02 21:34:17 <schiste>	and not a so called chapter with people with titles in it and nothing else going on
Oct 02 21:34:32 <Mbimmler>	"collaboration and consensus mean having a meeting about a meeting" No, it means exchanging a couple emails or making a few wiki edits before a meeting
Oct 02 21:34:42 <Tango42>	schiste, Mbimmler: You are not being constructive. Please drop the matter.
Oct 02 21:34:44 <schiste>	And yes I'm rude, but WM UK is really important for the future of the Wikimedia Movement
Oct 02 21:35:04 <KTC>	schiste, it will be collaborative, i will try my hardest to make sure :)
Oct 02 21:35:23 <Mbimmler>	Tango42: have fun reinventing the wheel. Just remember that a dozen of other chapters have been there before. And I mean, way before. I'll shut up for now
Oct 02 21:35:33 <Tango42>	Thank you.
Oct 02 21:35:36 *	privatemusings (n=chatzill@unaffiliated/privatemusings) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Oct 02 21:35:40 <Tango42>	hi pm
Oct 02 21:35:53 <cary>	here's trouble =-)
Oct 02 21:36:19 <schiste>	So please, stop reinventing the wheel. You're just doing stuff that doesn't need to. Keep on getting incorporated and then to have projects (other than helding a Wikimania ;)).
Oct 02 21:36:34 <KTC>	lol @ cary
Oct 02 21:36:41 <KTC>	hi pm
Oct 02 21:36:43 <schiste>	That said, fo as you wich, and I hope, really, we won't see a clone of what was.
Oct 02 21:36:43 <cary>	Yes, many chapters have formed before :)
Oct 02 21:36:44 <privatemusings>	heh :-)
Oct 02 21:36:51 <privatemusings>	just popping in to see if the board thing's still going (morning all :-) )
Oct 02 21:36:52 <cary>	right, no clones
Oct 02 21:37:00 <privatemusings>	(almost enough for a book)
Oct 02 21:37:03 <cary>	privatemusings, it's what, 5:00 am for you?
Oct 02 21:37:12 <privatemusings>	6.37...
Oct 02 21:37:18 <privatemusings>	it's a hot one down here too
Oct 02 21:37:19 <cary>	early still
Oct 02 21:37:27 <privatemusings>	aren't I dedicated :-)
Oct 02 21:37:55 <Tango42>	Board: Remember to keep M&A and Rules distinct - only things which need to be in the M&A should be, everything else goes in Rules since Rules can be changed by just agreeing a board meeting, changing the M&A is hard work
Oct 02 21:38:00 <Tango42>	and not always possible
Oct 02 21:38:24 <cary>	"Not just we five"
Oct 02 21:38:32 *	cary must correct grammar
Oct 02 21:39:09 <schiste>	:D
Oct 02 21:39:23 <Tango42>	are you sure about that, cary?
Oct 02 21:39:43 <Tango42>	"us" is objective, and that was the object of the sentence
Oct 02 21:39:58 <cary>	oh, right
Oct 02 21:40:03 <cary>	I was using us as the subject
Oct 02 21:40:07 <cary>	bah
Oct 02 21:40:17 *	cary pulls up a sentence diagramme
Oct 02 21:40:49 <KTC>	language lawyers....
Oct 02 21:40:56 <AndrewRT>	I'm sure us five is acceptable up north!
Oct 02 21:42:40 <Tango42>	Mike Godwin is a US lawyer, very different law.
Oct 02 21:42:41 <privatemusings>	I wonder if anyone has chatted about pseudo-anonymity and membership?
Oct 02 21:42:50 <privatemusings>	as in, are editors required to give a real name to join?
Oct 02 21:43:07 <KTC>	answer to first qusetion pm, no
Oct 02 21:43:11 <Tango42>	Guarantor members would need to release real names (although not necessarily linked with their psudonyms
Oct 02 21:43:15 <cary>	privatemusings, well, put it on the agenda :P
Oct 02 21:43:36 <Tango42>	the members list of a company limited by guarantee is public knowledge
Oct 02 21:43:45 <KTC>	Tango42, do we have a draft rules ?
Oct 02 21:43:50 <privatemusings>	that's probably worth stating explicitly somewhere....
Oct 02 21:43:52 <Tango42>	Not yet
Oct 02 21:43:58 <Tango42>	I'm happy to draft one if asked
Oct 02 21:44:13 *	privatemusings asks tango to do more work
Oct 02 21:44:24 <privatemusings>	(honestly... I mean I think we should all pull our weight.... ;-) )
Oct 02 21:44:26 <Tango42>	we haven't started accepting membership applications yet, so no need to start it anywhere yet
Oct 02 21:45:50 <Warofdreams>	Tango: no, but it can take time to come through, and we're hoping to accept membership applications in a couple of months
Oct 02 21:46:29 <Tango42>	Age restrictions only need to be in the M&A if you plan on not letting minors join, which I think would be a very bad plan
Oct 02 21:47:07 <Tango42>	If you want formal legal advice it will cost £1000s, I exchanged emails with a specialist solicitor about it
Oct 02 21:47:51 <Tango42>	At the moment, people can just give money to the board members, they can't donate to the charity since the charity doesn't exist.
Oct 02 21:48:10 <Tango42>	I think it's best for the board to pay expenses out of their own pockets and get reimbursed later
Oct 02 21:48:58 <Tango42>	I think a formal loan is unnecessary, just do it as an expenses claim
Oct 02 21:49:49 <KTC>	if it's for specific item, then yes expense.
Oct 02 21:49:56 <Tango42>	You'll need some cash for the swears
Oct 02 21:49:58 <schiste>	FYI when WMFR was created, we said to the founding members "we need xxx€ to get created". And people gave what they could
Oct 02 21:50:14 <schiste>	and here we are today with many K€ on the bank account
Oct 02 21:50:17 <cary>	And then they all drank wine and passed out cursing obscenities
Oct 02 21:50:20 <schiste>	YEAH !
Oct 02 21:50:28 <KTC>	schiste, i think the history with v1 means it's unlikely people will be giving money before a certain stage
Oct 02 21:50:34 <schiste>	And ate camembert and had sex
Oct 02 21:50:49 <Tango42>	i've never liked camembert...
Oct 02 21:50:57 <schiste>	KTC I dunno, I just feel it's weird. Culture gap perhaps
Oct 02 21:51:07 <schiste>	Tango42 you never liked anything I daresay
Oct 02 21:51:34 <cary>	ktc did you get my email?
Oct 02 21:51:43 <AndrewRT>	i have a jp friend who will do the swears for free
Oct 02 21:51:53 <Tango42>	I just think it's unnecessary to get donations at this stage - it only costs a few quid
Oct 02 21:51:59 <Tango42>	Excellent, AndrewRT
Oct 02 21:52:00 <KTC>	cary, i haven't checked, hold on
Oct 02 21:52:16 <Mbimmler>	FYI when we started our association, every board member paid the few expenses out of his own pocket and didn't claim anything for it later. I.e., treasurer paid the small fee for the bank account, secretary (yours truly) paid the postage and still does, and it was really never much of a bother
Oct 02 21:52:32 <Mbimmler>	every board member paid the few expenses *related to his "department"*
Oct 02 21:54:36 <KTC>	Mbimmler, it'll be up to the individual
Oct 02 21:54:46 <KTC>	a few £ i'm sure no one will mind
Oct 02 21:55:32 <privatemusings>	did I miss a discussion about timelines?
Oct 02 21:55:43 <KTC>	yes 
Oct 02 21:55:46 <Tango42>	Timelines were discussed
Oct 02 21:55:56 <Tango42>	I think someone updated the timeline on meta
Oct 02 21:55:56 <privatemusings>	I wonder when the board feel membership applications may be able to be taken? (this is a couple months away?) :-)
Oct 02 21:56:02 <cary>	The whole second season arc of Doctor Who was discussed
Oct 02 21:56:16 <Tango42>	Beginning of december sometime, if memory serves
Oct 02 21:56:32 <privatemusings>	don't be a badwolf, cary....
Oct 02 21:56:40 <privatemusings>	:-)
Oct 02 21:56:41 <schiste>	Did I miss MoA and AoA discussion?
Oct 02 21:56:41 <cary>	:-)
Oct 02 21:56:47 <cary>	No
Oct 02 21:56:53 <schiste>	:p
Oct 02 21:57:03 <mpeel>	privatemusings: as soon as we're incorporated
Oct 02 21:57:12 <Tango42>	the M&A discussion basically concluded that it should be discussed on meta and the mailing list before the next meeting
Oct 02 21:57:12 <mpeel>	for guarantor memberships, anyway.
Oct 02 21:57:41 <Tango42>	you may need to wait until you have the bank account and HMRC thing if you're going to charge membership fees
Oct 02 21:58:22 <KTC>	privatemusings, do you want a copy of the log, or rather wait for the minutes ?
Oct 02 21:58:24 <mpeel>	True: whether or not we ask for membership fees for guarantor members is something that hasn't been decided yet, I don't think.
Oct 02 21:58:51 <Tango42>	Indeed, I haven't seen discussion of it
Oct 02 21:59:08 <KTC>	it would depend on the type of membership we ahve