Meetings/2009-03-31/IRC

#wikimedia-uk-board

[20:27] You were granted voice by ChanServ.
[20:27] KTC: hi. and i was going to say to tango we were the only one here 
[20:27] Reedy left the chat room. (Read error: 145 (Connection timed out))
[20:29] mpeel: hi
[20:29] mpeel: sorry; only just realised the time
[20:30] KTC: well, considering you're here before 3 others, i don't think there's anything to aplogise for 
[20:30] AndrewRT joined the chat room.
[20:30] Tango42: mpeel, did you take notes during our discussion last night? or do I need to go through the logs extracting the relevent information?
[20:30] mpeel: yes; I made a list
[20:30] Tango42: good, good
[20:30] mpeel: Issues to discuss:
[20:30] mpeel: - Presentation
[20:30] mpeel: - views on chapter selection of WMF board seats
[20:30] mpeel: - to what extent and in what ways do we want to work with other chapters
[20:30] mpeel: - joint projects with other chapters: ideas, what we might want to join in with
[20:30] mpeel: - trademarks: what do we want to do with the wikipedia et al. trademarks from a chapter point of view?
[20:30] mpeel: - the WMF grants
[20:30] mpeel: - Success stories - opening a bank account (apparently the greatest challenge a chapter has ever faced!)
[20:30] mpeel: - there's going to be an announcement soon about WMDE getting another archive to release their photos in return for cataloguing, btw - I'd be interested in talking to WMDE about how we can do similar things in the uk
[20:30] mpeel: - I'd also be interested in talking to them about the toolserver - how they think it could be expanded, and what role other chapters can play in that.
[20:30] mpeel: - getting an understanding of how well local wiki-conferences work would be good, too.
[20:30] mpeel: - Level of formality / transparency / communication between chapters
[20:30] mpeel: - Level of encouraging multicultural/interlingual activities
[20:30] mpeel: - Chapters playing a consular role for each other?
[20:30] mpeel: - what sort of interaction should there be between chapters and multinational organizations?
[20:30] mpeel: - Level of contact with the board during the meeting?
[20:30] mpeel: did I miss anything?
[20:32] Warofdreams joined the chat room.
[20:32] • mpeel hopes that doesn't scare anyone off...
[20:32] Tango42: sounds about right
[20:32] Warofdreams: hi
[20:32] mpeel: btw, Tango42, did you get an email from Wikimania Danmark?
[20:32] Warofdreams: how do we update the topic?
[20:32] mpeel: sorry... Wikimedia Danmark
[20:33] Tango42: mpeel, yes, I was just typing a message about that!
[20:33] cfp joined the chat room.
[20:33] cfp was granted voice by ChanServ.
[20:33] Tango42: I've replied saying I'm interested in meeting, although I'm not sure when we'll have time
[20:33] Tango42: Maybe Sunday afternoon?
[20:33] AndrewRT: how shall we structure this?
[20:34] Tango42: depends on the planned committee meetings
[20:34] AndrewRT: (hi all btw)
[20:34] Tango42: ah, everyone is here - excellent! Let's get started
[20:34] mpeel: I haven't replied to him yet, but am kicking up about it on the chapters mailing list...
[20:34] Tango42: I propose mpeel chairs the meeting, since he has the list
[20:34] • KTC sit back and let other take ove
[20:34] AndrewRT: sure
[20:34] AndrewRT: mpeel u ok with that?
[20:34] Tango42: (no offence to KTC intended!)
[20:34] mpeel: I propose tango chairs the meeting to start with, as I'm currently eating a pancake...
[20:34] KTC: brb
[20:34] Tango42: lol
[20:35] KTC: back
[20:35] Topic changed to ""The" by Warofdreams.
[20:35] Tango42: fantastic trop
[20:35] Tango42: topic
[20:35] KTC: nice topic
[20:35] Warofdreams: how do I get it to accept a whole sentence?
[20:35] Topic changed to "Warofdreams can't do topic" by KTC.
[20:35] KTC:
[20:36] KTC: /topic bah bah bah
[20:36] Tango42: "/topic TOPIC GOES HERE"
[20:36] Tango42: any objects to me chairing?
[20:36] Tango42: objections
[20:36] AndrewRT: I'm fine with Tango
[20:36] Tango42: Ok, i'll start then
[20:36] AndrewRT: btw how long do you think this meeting will be?
[20:36] Tango42: 5, 6 hours? 
[20:37] AndrewRT: how about 45 mins?
[20:37] Tango42: An hour, maybe
[20:37] Topic changed to "test test test" by Warofdreams.
[20:37] AndrewRT: ok an hour
[20:37] Warofdreams: that's more promising 
[20:37] Topic changed to "Important meeting, not IRC sandbox! " by Tango42.
[20:38] Topic changed to "The next Wikimedia UK board meeting will be here on Tuesday 7 April at 8.30pm BST" by Warofdreams.
[20:38] Warofdreams: that's what I was after 
[20:38] Tango42: Right, let's start
[20:38] AndrewRT: fire away
[20:38] AndrewRT: how r we going to structure this?
[20:38] • KTC say ask the chair 
[20:38] Tango42: me
[20:38] Tango42: mpeel and I had a chat list night and put together a list of things to discuss
[20:39] Tango42: I plan to go through them one at a time
[20:39] KTC: that's last and not list btw 
[20:39] AndrewRT: ok
[20:39] Tango42: mpeel>- Presentation
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- views on chapter selection of WMF board seats
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- to what extent and in what ways do we want to work with other chapters
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- joint projects with other chapters: ideas, what we might want to join in with
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- trademarks: what do we want to do with the wikipedia et al. trademarks from a chapter point of view?
[20:39] AndrewRT: I've done an agenda here: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetings/2009-03-31/Agenda 
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- the WMF grants
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- Success stories - opening a bank account (apparently the greatest challenge a chapter has ever faced!)
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- there's going to be an announcement soon about WMDE getting another archive to release their photos in return for cataloguing, btw - I'd be interested in talking to WMDE about how we can do similar things in the uk
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- I'd also be interested in talking to them about the toolserver - how they think it could be expanded, and what role other chapters can play in that.
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- getting an understanding of how well local wiki-conferences work would be good, too.
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- Level of formality / transparency / communication between chapters
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- Level of encouraging multicultural/interlingual activities
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- Chapters playing a consular role for each other?
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- what sort of interaction should there be between chapters and multinational organizations?
[20:39] Tango42: <mpeel>- Level of contact with the board during the meeting?
[20:39] Tango42: Yeah, I can't type...
[20:40] Tango42: Presention:
[20:40] Tango42: We've been asked to put together some slides and give a presentation introducing our chapter
[20:40] Tango42: I've put a draft version on our wiki, I'll find a link
[20:42] Tango42: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Chap-meeting-slides.pdf
[20:42] Tango42: some bits in there are basically placeholders
[20:42] AndrewRT: uve got #members and income now?
[20:42] KTC: i was just about to say 
[20:42] Tango42: I'd welcome any contributions and changes
[20:43] AndrewRT: 18 members
[20:43] KTC: AGM date differs to website...
[20:43] Tango42: ah, slight problem... I don't have the source code... damn
[20:43] Tango42: it's on my computer at uni, i'm home for easter
[20:43] Tango42: stupid Tango...
[20:43] mpeel: shall I remake with keynote?
[20:44] Tango42: If you like
[20:44] AndrewRT: I'd suggest more than one bullet per slide
[20:44] AndrewRT: maybe 5-7 bullets
[20:44] Tango42: There is more than one bullet per slide - they appear one at a time, though
[20:44] AndrewRT: oh i can see now
[20:45] Tango42: (it's a latex presentation - that's how they work)
[20:45] AndrewRT: "Received" misspelt
[20:45] AndrewRT: difficulties - add time taken to get WMF &ChapCom approval
[20:45] Tango42: if mpeel is going to redo it, we should leave minor drafting issues until he shows us a draft
[20:46] Tango42: what difficulties did we have there? WMF board meetings too infrequent?
[20:46] AndrewRT: expectations - get ideas from other chapters to copy?
[20:46] Tango42: anything else?
[20:46] AndrewRT: took too long, poor communication - we struggled to even get confrmed it was on their agenda
[20:46] Tango42: everyone is supposed to upload their slides to meta, so there might be some there by now
[20:47] Warofdreams: hard to find out when their meetings were - we just missed one, when if we'd known about it, we might have been able to hurry along a bit more
[20:47] mpeel: we shouldn't copy the content of other people's slides, but come up with our own...
[20:47] AndrewRT: I suggest this is emailed round and each Board member gives feedback for mpeel to revise
[20:47] mpeel: (just in case that was being thought)
[20:47] Tango42: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapters_meeting_2009/Preparation has other people's slides linked
[20:47] AndrewRT: hows that for a plan?
[20:48] Tango42: We already have a draft, mpeel is just rewriting it because i lost the source code - it would be good if people commented on that draft now
[20:49] mpeel: I'm hoping I'll have a new version done shortly...
[20:49] Warofdreams: could mention involvement with Wikipedia Loves Art as a success
[20:49] Warofdreams: ...sorry, it's already there
[20:50] Tango42: does anyone have, or can make, a higher resolution logo?
[20:50] Tango42: with it blown up to fill a projector screen, it won't look too good
[20:50] Warofdreams: general approach of openness could be a success - advertising meetings on IRC, monthly newsletter, etc
[20:51] Tango42: yes, we've done very well with being open and transparent
[20:51] Warofdreams: difficulties include dealing with HMRC
[20:51] Reedy_ is now known as Reedy.
[20:52] Tango42: yes, we should mention HMRC being very slow
[20:52] AndrewRT: i second openness and opportunities for participation
[20:53] mpeel: where for? Successes, or Exectations?
[20:53] mpeel: * Expectations
[20:53] Tango42: successes
[20:53] Warofdreams: do you want the current members and income to already be on the second slide when it comes up, or would it be better to reveal it at the end of the slide?
[20:54] Tango42: it should be at the end
[20:55] mpeel: it's not really earth shattering...
[20:55] Tango42: that's a mistake in my TeX!
[20:56] Tango42: any other comments?
[20:56] Tango42: if not, we'll come back to it once mpeel has something to show us
[20:57] AndrewRT: yes i've got loads as you might imagine
[20:57] AndrewRT: how are we going to do this?
[20:57] Tango42: do what?
[20:57] AndrewRT: are we going to go through one slide at a time?
[20:58] Tango42: i'm open to random comments as people work through it themselves
[20:58] Tango42: we can do it one slide at a time if you like
[20:58] AndrewRT: ok - is mpeel working through them as people comment?
[20:59] mpeel: are we still on the slides?
[20:59] Tango42: yes
[20:59] mpeel: I have an initial version about ready...
[20:59] Tango42: good
[20:59] AndrewRT: r u going to upload it?
[20:59] Tango42: what format does keynote produce slideshows in?
[21:00] mpeel: pdf coming up...
[21:00] Tango42: good
[21:00] Tango42: let's give mpeel a moment, and then go through it slide by slide, then
[21:01] mpeel: http://www.mikepeel.net/temp/presentation.pdf
[21:01] AndrewRT: cheers!
[21:01] mpeel: brb, sorry...
[21:01] Tango42: cheers!
[21:01] Tango42: (mine looked better 
[21:02] Tango42: (serves me right for losing it...)
[21:02] AndrewRT: election was September not October
[21:02] AndrewRT: sldie 2 - why are some dates month only, others date & month
[21:02] KTC: Tango42, go to a uni where u can ssh / vpn into your uni account 
[21:02] AndrewRT: should all be one or the other
[21:02] Tango42: it's on my personal computer
[21:03] Tango42: i could telnet to it from here, otherwise
[21:03] Warofdreams: unless it's important that you speak about slide two in that exact order, I'd keep it chronological by putting "Today" above the AGM
[21:03] Tango42: or maybe more the AGM to the plans for the future slide?
[21:04] Tango42: *move
[21:04] AndrewRT: I think AGM is ok on that slide - fits in with timeline
[21:04] Tango42: we don't have days for some items because they didn't happen on a single day
[21:05] Warofdreams: the election was 20 - 27 September
[21:05] KTC: u can argue the board was elected (announced) on a single day
[21:05] Tango42: I think the annoucement of results was october, which is why that was the month on the timeline
[21:05] AndrewRT: I'd put 27 September as election day
[21:05] Warofdreams: I believe the announcement was 30 September
[21:05] AndrewRT: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Timeline
[21:06] mpeel: Tango42: my version isn't meant to look pretty
[21:06] mpeel: I'll do that later
[21:07] Tango42: I'd put the "Board formed, following election" on the 2nd October
[21:07] Tango42: rather than putting the election in the timeline itself
[21:07] Warofdreams: "August 2008" sounds fine to me for the first item; it wouldn't add anything to try to pin down exactly when the discussion started
[21:07] mpeel: I think we'd be best not having specific dates for anything other than the AGM...
[21:08] mpeel: "November 2008" tells you as much as you need to do; the 5th is not important.
[21:08] Tango42: discussion started when Allison announced the plan to dissolve v1, which we could pin down to a date if someone wants to check the email archives, but i see little point
[21:08] mpeel: however 26 April is important, as it's closer to us...
[21:08] AndrewRT: i second mpeel - drop all the dates except AGM
[21:08] AndrewRT: just month
[21:08] Tango42: ok, just months is fine
[21:09] AndrewRT: should bank account opened be added
[21:09] AndrewRT: esp as refering to it later on
[21:09] KTC: why not
[21:10] Tango42: since it coincides with accepting membership applications, i say we include them both together
[21:10] AndrewRT: sure
[21:10] AndrewRT: can we make "Discussion began following the announcement
[21:10] AndrewRT: that the existing chapter was being dissolved." a bit snappier
[21:10] KTC: eg?
[21:11] AndrewRT: Wikimedia UK v1 announces plan to dissolve
[21:11] Tango42: "Discussion began to reform the chapter"
[21:11] Tango42: we can explain why it was being reformed by speaking
[21:11] Tango42: not everything needs to be on the slides
[21:11] AndrewRT: sure
[21:12] AndrewRT: no exactly - you'll be speaking to the slides I presume, using as prompts
[21:12] Tango42: indeed
[21:12] Tango42: that's generally accepted as the best way to do a presentation
[21:12] AndrewRT: can I mention something on the next slide?
[21:12] Tango42: hang on
[21:12] AndrewRT: k
[21:12] Tango42: any more comments about the timeline?
[21:13] Tango42: seems not
[21:13] Tango42: next slide
[21:13] Tango42: Andrew?
[21:13] AndrewRT: bein picky
[21:13] AndrewRT: "Currently have 18 members and a total income
[21:13] AndrewRT: of £300
[21:13] AndrewRT: wld be nice to get on one line
[21:13] AndrewRT: say "18 members & £300 income"
[21:14] Tango42: yeah, let's give mpeel a chance to make it look pretty before complaining too much about cosmetics!
[21:14] AndrewRT: can i go onto next slide?
[21:14] Tango42: Yep
[21:14] Tango42: Successes
[21:14] AndrewRT: meeting the two deadlines I think was a key success
[21:15] AndrewRT: incorporate within 6 months
[21:15] AndrewRT: then AGM within 6 months
[21:15] AndrewRT: perhaps say "despite setbacks" ??
[21:15] Tango42: (This is also on my list of things to discuss, so let's combine that in here - there will be oportunities to talk to other chapters about our successes at various points during the meeting, so let's talk about what we should say then, too)
[21:16] Tango42: what advice we can offer to achieve similar successes, for exmaple
[21:16] AndrewRT: plough on I think is the main thing
[21:16] Tango42: yes, sounds good
[21:16] Tango42: plough on with what?
[21:16] AndrewRT: that seemed to be the main problem with v1
[21:16] AndrewRT: they lost momentum and then appeared to give up
[21:16] Tango42: yes, keeping up momentum is very important
[21:16] AndrewRT: when faced with hurdles
[21:17] AndrewRT: having non-Board members there was a help
[21:17] AndrewRT: openness helped keep up momentum
[21:17] Tango42: regular board meetings helped too
[21:18] KTC: having those deadlines even if our timeline towards it wasn't exactly accurate helped too
[21:18] Warofdreams: having a deadline written into the mem/arts was good
[21:18] AndrewRT: yeah I would definitely recomment a timeline
[21:18] Tango42: yes, keeping accurate track of where we were and where we needed to be was very helpful
[21:20] Tango42: cfp, are you still around?
[21:20] AndrewRT: sounds obvious but having an elected Board was good too
[21:20] KTC: Warofdreams, that deadline was the legal one, it didn't corrspond to our community one
[21:20] AndrewRT: meant there were five people with a job to do
[21:20] AndrewRT: rather than an informal group
[21:21] Tango42: what deadline was in the mem and arts? the default in 18 months to hold an AGM - did we reduce that the 6 months to match the community deadline?
[21:21] Warofdreams: KTC: was it?  well, the community deadline I think helped everyone see that we were keen to keep up the pace
[21:21] AndrewRT: Tango - no we discussed and decided against
[21:22] mpeel: updated version at http://www.mikepeel.net/temp/presentation2.pdf
[21:22] Warofdreams: ah, you're right, item 5.1 on http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Articles_of_Association
[21:22] KTC: i think we gave ourself room to renegoiate with the community for an extension to the deadline if needed, hence didn't alter the default in M&A
[21:22] AndrewRT: very nice 
[21:22] cfp: sorry i was following the discussion, will chip in if i think something's missing
[21:23] mpeel: 18 months was also kept in case we failed, and the next attempt wanted to use the framework we'd set up.
[21:23] mpeel: I'm a bit worried about the "Wikimedia UK" text in the logo, as I'm not sure it's supposed to be that colour on a black background, but there's nothing in the style guidelines to help...
[21:23] AndrewRT: can i talk about "difficulties"?
[21:24] Tango42: the logo isn't supposed to be used on anything other than a white background, I think...
[21:24] Tango42: cfp: that's fine, just making sure we hadn't lost you
[21:24] Tango42: mpeel: looks good
[21:25] Tango42: I've change "problems getting recognised by HMRC" to "delays getting..."
[21:25] Tango42: we haven't had any problems other than delays, have we?
[21:25] AndrewRT: just what i was about to say!
[21:25] AndrewRT: Tango42 - no
[21:25] AndrewRT: infers they'd turned us down
[21:25] mpeel: problems changed to delays
[21:25] AndrewRT: also HMRC should be Tax Authorities
[21:26] mpeel: ?
[21:26] AndrewRT: no one there will know what it means!
[21:26] KTC: what does the RC stand for ?
[21:26] KTC: nvm
[21:26] KTC: got it 
[21:26] mpeel: "Delays getting recognized as a charity for tax purposes"
[21:26] Tango42: revenue and customs
[21:26] AndrewRT: Her Majesty's Revenue & Customs
[21:26] Tango42: mpeel: that's good
[21:26] AndrewRT: excellent
[21:28] Tango42: sorry, I jumped ahead - did anyone have anything else to say about successes?
[21:28] AndrewRT: looks good to me!
[21:28] Tango42: apparently not, so on to difficulties
[21:28] cfp: ask james f about the logo
[21:29] cfp: when i met him at wmf he was complaining that the handout i gave out used the wrong logo
[21:29] Tango42: what did he say was wrong about it?
[21:29] AndrewRT: oh really
[21:29] cfp: and said he had the proper one
[21:29] Tango42: met him at wmf?
[21:29] cfp: wrong font/colour/positioning or something?
[21:29] cfp: met him at wla i should say
[21:29] Tango42: ah, that makes more sense!
[21:30] Tango42: we just stole the v1.0 logo, didn't we?
[21:30] AndrewRT: http://wikimediafoundation.org/wiki/Wikimedia_visual_identity_guidelines
[21:30] AndrewRT: "The colored Wikimedia logo should always be used on a white or very light gray background (max. 15% black), never on a colored background."
[21:30] mpeel: this is using the logo that we got during the setting up of the website
[21:31] Tango42: the logo doesn't look right - the word "WIKIMEDIA" is wrong
[21:31] Tango42: is should be wider
[21:31] KTC: *rolleyes* does it matter that much....
[21:31] Tango42: or maybe not...
[21:32] mpeel: ok; I'll sort out the logo and the colour scheme offline.
[21:32] Tango42: yeah, we'll worry about that another time
[21:32] Tango42: difficulties
[21:32] Tango42: chapcom - did we have any real difficulties with them? I thought they approved reasonable quickly
[21:32] Tango42: (not as quickly as we would have liked, but still reasonable)
[21:32] AndrewRT: hmm, they took a while achnowledging our application
[21:33] AndrewRT: and never gave us any kind of expectation as to how long it would take to deal with
[21:33] AndrewRT: they needed quite a bit of nudging
[21:33] Tango42: true, there were some issues with clarity of the process
[21:34] mpeel: WMUK1 had a fair amount of problems with them, if I've understood correctly.
[21:34] Tango42: I don't think we can know if that was problems with chapcom or problems with WMUK1
[21:34] AndrewRT: the main thing was just not knowing how long it would take, whether anythign was happening
[21:34] Tango42: and it was a very different chapcom that long ago
[21:35] AndrewRT: whether they were waiting for anythign more from us
[21:35] KTC: wmuk1 was (the? / one of the?) first chapter
[21:35] KTC: everything was new back then
[21:36] mpeel: one of the first
[21:36] KTC: so it can't be compared
[21:36] mpeel: WMDE was first
[21:36] Tango42: anything else to say about difficulties?
[21:37] Tango42: no?
[21:37] cfp: you should maybe complain a bit about the contract. it would have been useful if the contract had come with standard explanatory text as well
[21:37] cfp: and some of the changes we had to make other chapters would be interested in to
[21:37] Tango42: not really appropriate for this presentation, I think
[21:37] cfp: fair enough
[21:37] Tango42: the schedule has a bit for chapter-foundation relations, I think, we'll bring it up then
[21:38] cfp: k
[21:38] AndrewRT: contract?
[21:38] AndrewRT: is that the Chapters Agreement
[21:38] cfp: yeah
[21:38] AndrewRT: k
[21:38] Tango42: anything else?
[21:38] AndrewRT: hmm, not really
[21:39] AndrewRT: shoudl we say anything about IRC?
[21:39] cfp: we did take quite a while clarifying things (e.g. that bit about commercial ops) and making changes
[21:39] AndrewRT: havig to do all our meetings on IRC rather than in person
[21:39] cfp: i presume all chapters are in the same boat
[21:39] mpeel: is that a success or a difficulty?
[21:39] Tango42: i thought that was a good thing, really
[21:39] AndrewRT: yes there's pros and cons
[21:39] Tango42: more transparent
[21:39] Tango42: slightly slower
[21:39] AndrewRT: i think US-NYC is in person
[21:40] AndrewRT: I dont know - do most chapters do it in a similar way?
[21:40] mpeel: that has a much smaller geographical area, though.
[21:40] AndrewRT: to us
[21:40] AndrewRT: exactly
[21:40] Tango42: i'm not sure other chapters have such frequent meetings
[21:40] mpeel: I think we're a lot more talkative than most
[21:40] AndrewRT:
[21:40] Tango42: it's not such a significant point if you're only meeting once every few months
[21:41] KTC: HK is in person AFAIK
[21:41] KTC: HK being small enough geographically to meet in person
[21:41] Tango42: this is getting slightly off-topic, i think
[21:41] AndrewRT: it looks like it's something worth noting about our chapter then
[21:41] AndrewRT: perhaps not a a difficulty
[21:42] Tango42: This is meant to be a brief summary of the chapter - we don't need too much detail about procedure
[21:42] AndrewRT: ok
[21:42] AndrewRT: nothing else from me on diffs then
[21:42] Tango42: anyone else?
[21:42] mpeel: updated version at http://www.mikepeel.net/temp/presentation3.pdf
[21:43] mpeel: sadly with a less flashy background. 
[21:43] Tango42: awww
[21:43] Tango42: ok, plans
[21:43] Tango42: at the moment they are rather vague
[21:43] AndrewRT: looks good
[21:43] mpeel: the logo's the best one I can find; if it's wrong, then hopefully the WMF will be able to provide us with one, or with proper guidance at least...
[21:43] Tango42: (basically, placeholders)
[21:43] AndrewRT: i think they should be vague till after the AGM
[21:43] Tango42: yeah, we can talk to WMF about logos during the meeting, i'm sure
[21:44] AndrewRT: as its largely what's to be decided there and by teh first board
[21:44] Warofdreams: "hold AGM in a three weeks" - cut "a"
[21:44] KTC: tell anyone complaining about the logo to make us a better one / provide us with clear guideline / rules to do so 
[21:44] AndrewRT: "Membership drive"
[21:44] Tango42: yes, membership drive should be included
[21:44] mpeel: good point
[21:44] KTC: just to be pedentic AndrewRT, *this* is the first board 
[21:45] AndrewRT: yeah true
[21:45] AndrewRT: thsi is teh "interim Board"
[21:45] AndrewRT: sorry "initial Board"
[21:45] Tango42: I prefer "intial board"
[21:45] mpeel: I prefer "Board"
[21:45] Tango42: :
[21:45] AndrewRT: how about next Board?
[21:45] Tango42: ::)
[21:45] Tango42: lkgjhndlkgjhelkhsdfikghsdfgsd
[21:45] • Tango42 can't type
[21:45] • KTC give Tango42 an 'i'
[21:45] AndrewRT: liked it tho
[21:46] AndrewRT: goign cross eyed
[21:46] AndrewRT: i think "plans" is good
[21:46] mpeel: Win Wikimania 2010 bid in two weeks!
[21:46] mpeel: Hold AGM in three weeks
[21:46] mpeel: Membership drive
[21:46] mpeel: Begin fundraising
[21:46] mpeel: Begin project work
[21:46] mpeel: expectations?
[21:46] AndrewRT: spot on!
[21:46] mpeel: Meet people we will be working with in future
[21:46] mpeel: Establish relationships between WMUK and other chapters
[21:46] mpeel: Learn what’s worked and what hasn’t for other chapters
[21:46] Tango42: ok, so we add membership drive, and leave fundraising and projects as vague things to be filled in after the AGM?
[21:47] AndrewRT: Tango42 - yes I think so
[21:47] Tango42: mpeel: do you want the chair?
[21:47] mpeel: if you want
[21:47] Tango42: you just usurped me, so I was wondering 
[21:47] mpeel: sorry
[21:47] AndrewRT: Get ideas for projects
[21:47] AndrewRT: that's my main hope
[21:48] mpeel: added
[21:48] AndrewRT: learn what works - as you say
[21:48] AndrewRT: "Meet people we will be working with in future" - hmm not sure
[21:48] Tango42: networking is very important
[21:48] AndrewRT: i wouldnt' be surprised if we have very little contact with these guys agian in the next year
[21:49] AndrewRT: or do you think otherwise?
[21:49] mpeel: one of my hopes is that we can get chapters talking to each other more
[21:49] KTC: who "these guys"?
[21:49] AndrewRT: sorry i mean the other chapters
[21:49] mpeel: at the very least, we'll be talking to them on the mailing list
[21:49] Tango42: I hope we'll stay in touch and work together
[21:49] Tango42: there is a committee planned to discuss how to work together
[21:49] AndrewRT: "Establish relationships between WMUK and other
[21:49] AndrewRT: chapters" I agree with
[21:49] AndrewRT: possibly add relationship with WMF
[21:50] AndrewRT: and rather than "establish", deepen/improve/add to
[21:50] Tango42: yes, WMF too
[21:50] AndrewRT: given we already have a started relationship via the email list!
[21:50] Tango42: we don't have any relationships with other chapters, do we?
[21:50] Tango42: true, there are multilateral relationships
[21:50] AndrewRT: well, we talk to them on the email list
[21:50] Tango42: no bilateral ones
[21:50] AndrewRT: no
[21:51] AndrewRT: who knows we might soon with the swiss!
[21:51] Tango42: some bilateral relationships would be good
[21:51] Tango42: huh?
[21:51] AndrewRT: how about an AGM in Paris?
[21:51] AndrewRT:
[21:51] Tango42: soon what?
[21:51] mpeel: mbimmler
[21:51] AndrewRT: swiss chapter president is moving to england
[21:51] AndrewRT: ex-president I should say
[21:52] Tango42: oh, might soon have a relationship with the swiss
[21:52] Tango42: i get you
[21:52] KTC: u can get one with HK if i move to HK 
[21:52] AndrewRT: oh yeah sorry
[21:52] AndrewRT: excellent!
[21:52] AndrewRT: have you got plans to do that KTC?
[21:52] AndrewRT: and we also have a relationship with us-nyc via Wikipedia Loves Art
[21:52] mpeel: expectations are now:
[21:52] mpeel: Improve relationships between WMUK, other chapters and the WMF
[21:52] mpeel: Learn what’s worked and what hasn’t for other chapters
[21:52] mpeel: Get ideas for projects
[21:52] KTC: it's a definite possibility, altho not definite
[21:53] mpeel: we're supposed to only have three expectations, so I've removed the first.
[21:53] AndrewRT: i c
[21:53] mpeel: definite, but not definite. Interesting...
[21:53] AndrewRT: only three?
[21:53] mpeel: see http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapters_meeting_2009/Preparation if you haven't already
[21:53] AndrewRT: ok
[21:53] KTC: "definite possibility" but not "definitely going to happen" 
[21:53] AndrewRT: personally I'd have them in reverse order but you might disagree
[21:54] mpeel: I'm happy whichever way around
[21:54] Tango42: i like this order
[21:54] Tango42: other opinions?
[21:55] AndrewRT: excellent set of slides - we can use it for teh AGM too!
[21:55] Tango42: yeah, they'll be a good start for a AGM report
[21:55] AndrewRT: thanks for that Tango42 & mpeel
[21:56] Tango42: I take it there are no other opinions, so'll I'll concede to Andrew - let's reverse the order
[21:56] AndrewRT: cheers
[21:57] AndrewRT: are we done on presentation then mpeel?
[21:57] mpeel: not quite
[21:57] Tango42: any other comments?
[21:57] mpeel: there are two optional slides that we can have
[21:57] AndrewRT: yeah?
[21:57] mpeel: "Thematic slides
[21:57] mpeel: Three tracks are planned to be led by experts (mostly members of the staff of the Wikimedia Foundation): Communication & Marketing, Funding & fundraising and Public outreach.
[21:57] mpeel: Chapters can submit a single slide for each topic in order to raise specific issues or start discussions
[21:57] mpeel:   1. Communication / Marketing / PR
[21:57] mpeel:   2. Public outreach
[21:57] mpeel: We would like all chapters to bring examples of their PR and outreach material: cheatsheets, chapter leaflets, brochures, CDs, etc."
[21:58] AndrewRT: the only material we have is the WLA stuff - have you got copies?
[21:58] Tango42: I don't get what we're meant to do for those slides
[21:58] Tango42: we have some wikimania stuff too - a factsheet
[21:58] mpeel: AndrewRT: I haven't got copies of that. Could you send me PDF copies?
[21:58] mpeel: ditto the wikimania stuff
[21:58] Tango42: and should we bring a copy of the membership form?
[21:59] Tango42: the wikimania factsheet is on the website somewhere
[21:59] mpeel: I'll have that on my laptop - no point taking dead trees when we have an electronic version...
[21:59] Tango42: does anyone think we should make slides?
[22:00] AndrewRT: I'm not sure we should
[22:00] AndrewRT: other chapters have more experience with this that us
[22:00] Tango42: anyone?
[22:00] Tango42: going once...
[22:01] Tango42: ok, let's move on, shall we?
[22:01] AndrewRT: k
[22:01] Tango42: we're already running drastically over time!
[22:01] Tango42: right, WMF board seats
[22:01] AndrewRT: we covered this yesterday
[22:01] Tango42: you talked about them a bit yesterday
[22:01] AndrewRT: is that enough?
[22:01] Tango42: anyone thought of anything since?
[22:02] Tango42: mpeel put this on the list - what did you want to say?
[22:02] mpeel: was tempted to ask you all to repeat what you said last time, to see if you said the same thing... 
[22:03] AndrewRT: do we have to??
[22:03] Tango42: yeah, it's late, let's not...
[22:03] AndrewRT:
[22:03] mpeel: that was only a joke
[22:03] AndrewRT:
[22:03] mpeel: the main thing is that Tango42 wasn't present last time, so any things he wanted to ask
[22:03] Tango42: ok, moving on
[22:03] Tango42: no, i don't think so
[22:03] AndrewRT: Tango42 have you had a chance to read our comments
[22:03] AndrewRT: ?
[22:03] mpeel: particularly if he's going to be representing the chapter at one of the committees.
[22:03] Tango42: yes, i read the logs
[22:03] Tango42: all seems reasonable
[22:04] Tango42: Let's talk about how we want to work with other chapters
[22:04] AndrewRT: k
[22:04] Tango42: anyone want to start us off?
[22:04] AndrewRT: I would like to be convinced that we should do too much here
[22:04] AndrewRT: beyond getting ideas and copying them
[22:04] AndrewRT:
[22:05] Tango42: we should be concentrating on the UK, for the most part, so working with other chapters would be a minor thing
[22:05] mpeel: we shouldn't be an island, IMO
[22:05] mpeel: there are lots of benefits to working with other chapters
[22:05] AndrewRT: haha
[22:05] Tango42: yeah, we need to share ideas
[22:05] AndrewRT: mpeel - such as?
[22:05] mpeel: sorry; that was an unintentional pun...
[22:05] Tango42: are there projects we want to work together on?
[22:05] AndrewRT: Eu legislation is possibly one
[22:05] mpeel: increased visibility, publicity, funding and weight
[22:05] AndrewRT: other chapters have mentioned
[22:06] Tango42: yeah, EU stuff is a good point
[22:06] AndrewRT: in a couple of years time we will be one of the largest chapters
[22:06] AndrewRT: so we should start to think about supporting smaller chapters
[22:06] AndrewRT: (perhaps Ireland?)
[22:06] mpeel: we're all trying to do the same thing, basically, so we should be working together to do that.
[22:06] AndrewRT: but not yet I dont think
[22:06] mpeel: let's stop being a small chapter first!
[22:06] Tango42: partnerships with multinationals might be a good thing to work together on?
[22:07] AndrewRT: yeah that's true
[22:07] Tango42: yeah, we don't want to turn on to the meeting talking about how we're going to be on off the big guys when someone else has had to pay for us to even get there!
[22:08] AndrewRT: good point!
[22:08] Tango42: cfp, you've gone quiet again - any comments?
[22:09] AndrewRT: so - EU legislation, MNCs, sharing ideas
[22:09] AndrewRT: and presumably chapters meetings and chapter-selected WMF seats
[22:09] Tango42: yes
[22:09] mpeel: what about joint projects?
[22:09] mpeel: e.g. toolserver?
[22:10] Tango42: does WMDE need any help with the toolserver?
[22:10] mpeel: I don't know; that's something to find out
[22:10] AndrewRT: yeah we should offer if we can help
[22:10] Tango42: ok, we can talk to them about it
[22:11] Tango42: shall we move on?
[22:11] mpeel: another example would possibly be things like the bundesarchiv free content; it would be good if we could do something similar in the UK, possibly using any tools that WMDE's developed.
[22:11] Tango42: yes, sharing tools if worth asking about
[22:11] Tango42: *is
[22:11] AndrewRT: possibly with the BBc of course!
[22:11] mpeel: a joint approach to the technical side on that would save a lot of time.
[22:12] Tango42: ok, let's move on to trademarks
[22:12] AndrewRT: and WM-NL was interested in running a project like Wikipedia Loves Art
[22:12] AndrewRT: trademarks - what do we want to do?
[22:12] AndrewRT: get as many rghts as we can, surely?
[22:12] mpeel: that depends
[22:12] Tango42: i would think so
[22:13] mpeel: there's legal repercussions to having them
[22:13] mpeel: e.g. the most troublesome trademark is wikipedia
[22:13] Tango42: what do we actually need rights to do?
[22:13] Tango42: there are?
[22:13] mpeel: people with domains using that tend to get sued
[22:13] mpeel: e.g. the wikipedia.de portal
[22:13] AndrewRT: Taho42 - stuff like this: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/4/47/WLARTatV%26A_Handout.pdf
[22:14] AndrewRT: which used the WP logo
[22:14] Tango42: yes, non-commercial stuff like that is good
[22:14] AndrewRT: surely the foundation is on top of all the legal issues though?
[22:14] AndrewRT: or do we need separate advice before we do this?
[22:14] Tango42: the original chapter agreement allowed us rights to any non-commercial use, yes? we should try and get that back
[22:15] Tango42: wikipedia.de gets them sued and they get the case thrown out straight away
[22:15] Tango42: that's going to happen to us too, we can't avoid it
[22:15] AndrewRT: as long as its easy to defend thats fine
[22:15] AndrewRT: you'll always get chancers
[22:15] Tango42: we just have to show that we have nothing to do with it
[22:15] mpeel: DE law is different from UK law
[22:15] Tango42: not relevantly to this
[22:16] Tango42: we can't be held responsible for something we have no control over
[22:16] AndrewRT: we can if we're deemed to be the same organisation
[22:16] Tango42: but we're not
[22:16] AndrewRT: whcih I guess is the danger area
[22:16] Tango42: there is no legal connection between us
[22:16] Tango42: beyond a trademark license
[22:17] Tango42: a trademark license doesn't give us control over wikipedia
[22:17] AndrewRT: we need to make sure our actions doesn't make that an arguable point
[22:17] Tango42: I don't see how it can be
[22:18] AndrewRT: i dont know
[22:18] AndrewRT: are we confortable that there's no/negligible risk?
[22:18] Tango42: i am
[22:19] AndrewRT: mpeel?
[22:19] mpeel: I'd like to discuss it with Mike Godwin at least
[22:19] Tango42: i'd rather discuss it with our own legal person
[22:19] mpeel: ditto, but that costs money
[22:19] mpeel: which we don't have
[22:19] AndrewRT: i thought you said you were happy there was no risk?
[22:20] KTC: there's negligible risk
[22:20] Tango42: we need out own legal person, whether it costs or not
[22:20] AndrewRT: well, we have some and we have LawWorks up our sleave
[22:20] KTC: one can't say there's "no" risk unless & until a court have ruled as such
[22:20] mpeel: LawWorks is no more than a name and a potential contact to us at the moment
[22:20] mpeel: we haven't even made contact with them, have we?
[22:20] AndrewRT: Tango42 - why would we need our own legal person if there's no/negligible risk?
[22:20] AndrewRT: mpeel - no
[22:20] Tango42: because sooner or later someone is going to sue us thinking we are WMF
[22:21] AndrewRT: ok, sure, but with regards this particular issue?
[22:21] Tango42: we can get the case thrown out pretty quickly, but not without a lawyer
[22:21] AndrewRT: do we knoe what WM-DE does for legal representation?
[22:21] mpeel: that's something we should find out.
[22:21] AndrewRT: maybe one to ask in Berlin - given that they have been sued
[22:22] mpeel: at the chapters meeting.
[22:22] Tango42: also, if we win the wikimania bid we could have over £100k moving through our bank account, that warrants some professional advice available, I think
[22:22] Tango42: (both legal and accounting)
[22:22] AndrewRT: i think there's a general point there for the next Board to consider
[22:22] AndrewRT: presume it's on your agenda? 
[22:23] Tango42: mine? oh, yes
[22:23] Tango42: it's there
[22:23] AndrewRT: hehe thats good!
[22:23] Tango42: i have a whole section on administrative stuff
[22:23] mpeel: Tango42 and AndrewRT, I hope you've both submitted yourselves as candidates for the next board?
[22:24] Tango42: you know I never submit applications until the last minute!
[22:24] AndrewRT: I have yes - have you mpeel?
[22:24] • KTC look at all 5 of u
[22:24] mpeel: I have.
[22:24] AndrewRT: excellent! cfp?
[22:24] AndrewRT: warofdreams?
[22:24] mpeel: Tango42: perhaps we should make a special deadline for you, then?
[22:24] KTC: lol
[22:24] Tango42: lol
[22:24] AndrewRT: only got till this weekend you know Tango?
[22:24] Tango42: i'll try and find time to write a statement tomorrow - that's the only thing that needs time
[22:25] Warofdreams: I'm not planning on standing
[22:25] mpeel: if you haven't done it by the time we meet in berlin, I'll have to go looking for that brick...
[22:25] Tango42: lol
[22:25] mpeel: Warofdreams: you're not?
[22:25] Warofdreams: not that I don't want to stay involved
[22:26] Warofdreams: but I'm not going to have so much spare time
[22:26] AndrewRT: thaats' a shame
[22:26] Tango42: does that mean we have only 5 people having currently expressed an interest?
[22:26] Tango42: i hope some more have been keeping quiet...
[22:26] Warofdreams: and I think the board really needs people who will be able to start new up new projects
[22:27] KTC: AndrewRT, Tango42, mpeel, and ?
[22:27] Tango42: seddon
[22:27] AndrewRT: i dont imagine there'll be as many meeting as this board
[22:27] mpeel: seddon's not a member yet
[22:27] AndrewRT: cfp?
[22:27] Tango42: yes, cfp was the 5th I couldn't remember
[22:27] AndrewRT: if he wants to stand I'll nominate Seddon
[22:27] Warofdreams: might mbimmler stand?
[22:27] AndrewRT: if he wants
[22:28] Tango42: why isn't he a member yet?
[22:28] mpeel: you'd have to ask him
[22:28] AndrewRT: no i dont think so - he's only arriving in UK in the autumn
[22:28] Tango42: i was banking on him beiun
[22:28] mpeel: well, either him, or the postman...
[22:28] KTC: Warofdreams, maybe next year
[22:28] Tango42: being on the board to be the wikimania trustee if we win
[22:29] Tango42: cfp, are you standing?
[22:29] Warofdreams: I wonder if David Gerard might think of standing?
[22:29] Tango42: (we've gone rather off-topic, but I think this is important - we may need to do some campaigning for applications)
[22:29] KTC: is he a member ?
[22:29] AndrewRT: I was just typing that! 
[22:30] mpeel: no, he isn't...
[22:30] AndrewRT: would be good to twist David's arm and get him involved
[22:30] AndrewRT: Tango42 - I did a post to the list
[22:30] Tango42: I'm not entirely comfortable with someone that was partly responsible for v1's failure being on our board
[22:30] Tango42: i know - we may need more!
[22:30] AndrewRT: well dont vote for him then!
[22:30] Warofdreams: the organisation's now up and running - that was v1's downfall.  David did a good job on their comms, and he's still helping out
[22:31] AndrewRT: remember he stil needs 50%+ even if there are only 6 candidates!
[22:31] Tango42: I'd like david to be our press officer, but he doesn't need to be on the board for that
[22:31] KTC: um, we're on 3 atm if all these potential candidates aren't even members
[22:32] Tango42: cfp?
[22:32] Tango42: hello?
[22:32] Warofdreams: who's the guy from the schools project?  is he a member?
[22:32] AndrewRT: andrew cates
[22:32] AndrewRT: erm - isn't membership a confidential matter?
[22:32] Warofdreams: that's him
[22:32] • mpeel isn't sure whether he should be divulging who is and isn't a member..
[22:32] Warofdreams: yes, good point
[22:32] Tango42: it's not confidential
[22:33] Tango42: you're legally obliged to give people a list if they have a good reason
[22:33] mpeel: even so
[22:33] Tango42: i don't think you need a good reason to give someone the list
[22:33] AndrewRT:  besides, strictly speaking you dont need to be a member to be a candidate
[22:33] AndrewRT: just be nominated by a member
[22:33] Warofdreams: it's not, but there's a difference actively giving out info, and passively responding to formal requests
[22:33] Tango42: yeah, i'm confused by that
[22:34] Tango42: ceasing to be a member gets you thrown off the board
[22:34] AndrewRT: so we could get round it that way if, say, Andrew can be persuaded to stand
[22:34] KTC: and i still stand by my argument last time this came up
[22:34] KTC: it's a matter of public record
[22:34] AndrewRT: Tango42 - yes bit of a loopwhole there
[22:34] KTC: we talk about transperacy
[22:34] AndrewRT: KTC - remind me what that was?
[22:34] KTC: we had a side point discussion sometime before
[22:35] KTC: and i argued that it shouldn't be a problem answering such question / announcing who be accepted as members
[22:35] KTC: (just the names)
[22:35] KTC: as it's already legally publically available if someone ask
[22:35] AndrewRT: so why aren't we recording them in the minutes?
[22:35] AndrewRT: when they're approved
[22:35] Tango42: because those discussions take place before the money is sorted
[22:35] KTC: *shrug*
[22:35] AndrewRT: in teh public minutes I should say
[22:36] Tango42: there is no need to make someone bouncing a cheque public knowledge
[22:36] KTC: *nod* to Tango42
[22:36] AndrewRT: fine - make it public when the cheque clears then
[22:36] KTC: anyway, back on topic ?
[22:37] AndrewRT: yeah suppose we should!
[22:37] Tango42: yes
[22:37] Tango42: trademarks
[22:37] Tango42: anything more to say about them?
[22:37] Tango42: We want rights to use all of them for non-commerical use?
[22:37] AndrewRT: yeah pretty much
[22:37] Tango42: (we might seek legal advice before using them, though)
[22:37] AndrewRT: would a T-shift be commercial use?
[22:37] AndrewRT: _shirt_
[22:37] Tango42: we're happy to request specific permission for commercial use?
[22:38] AndrewRT: if so, commercial use too
[22:38] KTC: what was the response Mike G gave on this?
[22:38] Tango42: do we want wikipedia t-shirts (as opposed to wikimedia uk ones)?
[22:38] KTC: when we we talking about the chapter argeement
[22:38] AndrewRT: why not - I'd sooner wear a shift with the wp logo on than with wmuk
[22:39] Tango42: He said they removed the non-commerical rights following advice for a trademark expert
[22:39] AndrewRT: KTC - dont know, not on the list
[22:39] Tango42: we can request specific permission for t-shirts
[22:39] KTC: no no, he gave his opinion on wmf interpertation on what's commerical
[22:40] Tango42: i don't remember reading that
[22:40] KTC: and whether such things as tshirt for fund raising counted as commerical
[22:40] mpeel: that was for the WMUK logo
[22:40] mpeel: not for the wikipedia one
[22:40] mpeel: wasn't it?
[22:40] AndrewRT: presumably the commercial / NC argument would be the same thou
[22:40] KTC: yes, but that's partly because that was all we were talking about at the time
[22:41] Tango42: we have the right to use wikimedia uk for commerical purposes, don't we?
[22:41] mpeel: nope
[22:41] AndrewRT: could we ask mpeel and Tango42 to clarify this in Berlin?
[22:41] AndrewRT: as mike G will be there
[22:41] Tango42: i think godwin is giving a talk on trademarks
[22:41] mpeel: he is
[22:41] AndrewRT: that's excellent
[22:41] Tango42: things may be clearer after that
[22:41] KTC: um, i'm not sure whether i can quote part of the email here as it was just sent to the board
[22:41] mpeel: with a discussion session
[22:42] mpeel: "# Commercial use of the Wikimedia name, logo, or localized logo shall be subject to the terms of a separate trademark agreement between the two parties."
[22:42] AndrewRT: do it on private if you want
[22:42] mpeel: from the chapters agreement
[22:42] KTC: but he basically said sales of things like tshirts is noncommerical fundraising
[22:42] KTC: in the eyes of the WMF
[22:42] mpeel: yup
[22:42] AndrewRT: ok that means we dont need commercial then?
[22:42] Tango42: so we don't have the right to use our own trading name for whatever we like? we need to change that...
[22:43] mpeel: for most of what we do, we don't need commercial
[22:43] mpeel: for big things, we probably will, but can negatiate with WMF for those
[22:43] mpeel: * negotiate
[22:43] Tango42: but we shouldn't really be using a trading name that we don't have complete freedom to use
[22:43] AndrewRT: tango42 - yeah it is a bit odd
[22:43] mpeel: we essentially do for everything that we need to use it for.
[22:44] Tango42: how are we supposed to enter negotiations with 3rd parties if everything has to be conditional on WMF approving it? No-one will take us seriously.
[22:44] mpeel: it depends on what the negotiations are.
[22:44] mpeel: for most, I wouldn't have thought that we would.
[22:45] KTC: brb
[22:45] Tango42: for any kind of commercial stuff
[22:45] mpeel: for others, a quick email to Mike Godwin will probably suffice, I'd guess...
[22:45] mpeel: we should talk to him about this, though.
[22:45] Tango42: selling Wikipedia for Schools style stuff, for example
[22:45] mpeel: the other chapters will probably have views on this anyhow.
[22:46] Tango42: A quick email does not constitute a "trademark agreement". We need something more formal, from how I interpret the clause.
[22:46] Tango42: well, I think we know what the WMUK viewpoint is, so we can discuss this at the meeting after the talk
[22:46] Tango42: let's move on, it's getting late!
[22:46] Tango42: WMF grants
[22:47] Tango42: someone from the WMF wants to meet with us to talk about them (mpeel - are you going to reply to him?)
[22:47] mpeel: yes; I should do that now.
[22:47] AndrewRT: we talked about this yesterday
[22:48] AndrewRT: we're meeting again next Tuesday after Berlin so may get an applocation in at the last minute then
[22:49] AndrewRT: has everyone found something else more interesting to do?
[22:49] AndrewRT: mpeel? Tango42? WarofDreams?
[22:49] AndrewRT: KTC?
[22:50] mpeel: I'm writing an email to Frank...
[22:50] KTC: more interesting than what ?
[22:50] mpeel: am still listening in.
[22:50] Warofdreams: I'm mostly working on an essay and need to go in a minute, but I am here at the moment
[22:51] Tango42: we don't have much planned yet for grants...
[22:51] AndrewRT: more interesting than this meeting 
[22:52] Tango42: perhaps we should just talk to the WMF guy in general terms with regards to the future, rather than this application session
[22:52] KTC: oh, i've been watching TV episodes on ITV player while this has been going on 
[22:52] AndrewRT: thsi hasn't quite been the quick meeting it was billed as
[22:52] mpeel: it has rather dragged on, the same as board meetings tend to...
[22:52] mpeel: Tango42: strong chairing, please!
[22:53] KTC: yep, at least i'm not responsible this time as chair 
[22:53] Tango42: lol
[22:53] AndrewRT: i thought you were the chair mpeel?
[22:53] Tango42: yeah, it seems whoever chairs they run on a bit
[22:53] Tango42: no, i'm still chair
[22:53] AndrewRT: ok
[22:53] Tango42: i was just joking about mpeel usurping me
[22:53] AndrewRT: ah right
[22:53] AndrewRT: I'd never do something like that! 
[22:53] Tango42: we're only about half way through my list
[22:54] AndrewRT: yeah but most things have been covered elsewhere
[22:54] Tango42: do we want to adjourn and reconvene tomorrow?
[22:54] cfp: sorry guys i got called away for something vaguely urgent
[22:54] AndrewRT: I have to go aroudn 11:30
[22:54] AndrewRT: can we express our way through the rest?
[22:54] Tango42: cfp: that's ok. Are you planning to stand for the wmuk board at the agm?
[22:54] AndrewRT: hehe onto the important stuff!
[22:55] Tango42: ok, most important thing still on my list:
[22:55] Tango42: Communication between mpeel and I and the rest of you guys during the meeting
[22:55] AndrewRT: surely your list was already prioritised with the most important things at the top 
[22:55] Tango42: no - mpeel wrote the list 
[22:55] cfp: hmm i dunno. i haven't had a lot of time of late and i don't want to deprive someone with more time the chance of doing a better job
[22:56] AndrewRT: how does "none" sound?
[22:56] mpeel: it was written in the order that we came up with things. 
[22:56] Tango42: cfp: at this rate, you won't be depriving anyone. We seem to have 3 people standing...
[22:56] AndrewRT: you have been given a mandate here
[22:57] AndrewRT: If anyone wants you to make an urgent decision I suggest you give a firm "No"
[22:57] Tango42: If there is anything we need to contact you about, how should we?
[22:57] Tango42: is email fine?
[22:57] AndrewRT: by all means email board@wikimedia.org.uk
[22:58] AndrewRT: by please dont expect an urgent response from everyone
[22:58] Tango42: incidentally, is that mailing list just the current board now?
[22:58] Warofdreams: I'm afraid I've got to go now; in the unlikely event that you need me for an urgent decision, I'll be contactable by phone.  Hope the chapters meeting is a big success!
[22:58] AndrewRT: Tango42 - yes
[22:58] mpeel: thanks for coming, Warofdreams.
[22:58] AndrewRT: cheers WarofDreams
[22:58] Tango42: ok, byebye Warofdreams
[22:58] KTC: thanks and bye 
[22:58] Tango42: thanks
[22:58] Warofdreams left the chat room.
[22:58] cfp: good luck
[22:58] cfp: have fun in berlin
[22:59] Tango42: There is only really one other thing to discuss, what nature we want relationships between the chapters to have
[22:59] AndrewRT: r you off too cfp?
[22:59] Tango42: what level of formality
[22:59] Tango42: how extensive
[22:59] Tango42: that kind of thing
[22:59] AndrewRT: hmm, not much
[22:59] Tango42: I think some kind of Memoradum of Understanding would be good
[23:00] AndrewRT: omg
[23:00] AndrewRT: please no
[23:00] Tango42: at least covering the wmf board selection process
[23:00] AndrewRT: wouldn't that overbeurocratise?
[23:00] Tango42: depends what it says
[23:00] AndrewRT: (or however you spell it!)
[23:01] AndrewRT: i think we need to have a chapters "chair"
[23:01] AndrewRT: as someone else suggested
[23:01] AndrewRT: who can take a lead coordinating stuff like cahpter-selected seats
[23:01] AndrewRT: and chapters meeting
[23:01] Tango42: that seems even more beurocratic than an MOU!
[23:01] Tango42: not a bad idea, though
[23:01] mpeel: perhaps "organiser" is a better word to use than chair?
[23:02] mpeel: or "coordinator"
[23:02] cfp: no no i'm not off i thought everyone was.
[23:02] Tango42: moderator?
[23:02] AndrewRT: name's not too important
[23:02] AndrewRT: just someone to push the process along
[23:02] mpeel: they differ in terms of the formality
[23:02] Tango42: but yeah, a rotating position to organise stuff#
[23:03] AndrewRT: yeah that was what I had in mind
[23:03] Tango42: I think that requires an MOU, really - something has to specify how the process works
[23:03] mpeel: An informal agreement should be sufficient
[23:03] Tango42: an MOU isn't very formal
[23:03] Tango42: it's just about understanding, not agreeing to anything
[23:03] AndrewRT: just a volunteer and everyone agreeing who's to do it I think is all that's needed
[23:04] Tango42: i'd prefer something more formal than that - it avoids problems letter with people disagreeing over how things should work and inconvinient times
[23:04] Tango42: *later
[23:05] mpeel: something formal will have the problem that we'll continually need to add people to the agreement.
[23:05] mpeel: as new chapters come along
[23:05] mpeel: something informal can just sit there until someone disagrees with it
[23:05] Tango42: Just get them to sign it, it doesn't need everyone to sign it
[23:06] Tango42: Just have it say that any recognised WMF chapter is eligable
[23:06] Tango42: (unless explicitly expelled, perhaps...)
[23:06] AndrewRT: I'm not convinced a formal agreement is the best way forward
[23:06] Tango42: let's hope we never need that clause, though
[23:06] AndrewRT: and given our reputation for over-formallising, I'm not sure the other chapters would agree either
[23:07] AndrewRT: they seem to prefer to keep it informal
[23:07] Tango42: true
[23:07] KTC: informal haven't exactly got us moving along well in the chapter selection for board...
[23:07] KTC: *shrug*
[23:07] AndrewRT: no - very true
[23:07] mpeel: informal has worked very well for organizing the berlin meeting, though
[23:07] Tango42: unfortunately, I don't think we'll have someone on the committee discussing this, so we'll have to just bring it up during informal chats, etc.
[23:08] AndrewRT: sure
[23:08] Tango42: that wasn't really informal, that was WMDE taking charge and getting on with it, which does work very well, but it's good to rely on
[23:08] Tango42: isn't good
[23:08] • Tango42 really can't type...
[23:08] AndrewRT: I think that's what we need
[23:08] KTC: Tango42 : we've learned that 
[23:09] AndrewRT: a chapter to volunteer to get on with organising everyone
[23:10] Tango42: i'd rather a rotation system
[23:10] KTC: u can do it like the EU presidency, rotate it between chapters
[23:10] AndrewRT: yeah - we wouldn't want the same chapter doing it year in year out
[23:10] AndrewRT: hopefully a different chapter will organise the chapters meeting in 2010 for instance
[23:11] KTC: u guys can volunteer the UK 
[23:11] Tango42: the uk could do with getting more established
[23:12] AndrewRT: yeah u say that - you're not standing again!
[23:12] KTC:  hey now, if we say we can organise wikimania, then surely we are capable of organising a chapter meeting
[23:13] Tango42: I was wondering if we should try and combine our 2010 AGM/conference with a chapter meeting (maybe an european chapter meeting)
[23:13] AndrewRT: i don't think we should volunteer to do that until the Wikimania bid is unknown!
[23:14] AndrewRT: until the Wikimania bid is known!
[23:14] AndrewRT: I need to head off now is that ok?
[23:14] KTC: *wave*
[23:14] Tango42: yeah, i think we're done
[23:14] AndrewRT: have you got everything you need mpeel, Tango42?
[23:15] KTC: enjoy yourself the both of you!
[23:15] mpeel: mostly...
[23:15] AndrewRT: take that as a yes 
[23:15] mpeel: what sort of feedback do you want from the meeting?
[23:15] AndrewRT: bye then!
[23:15] AndrewRT left the chat room. ("ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]")
[23:15] KTC: provide as much as you can?
[23:16] Tango42: i think we can work out for ourselves what to feedback
[23:16] mpeel: ok; will take lots of notes.
[23:16] Tango42: as will i
[23:22] mpeel: ok, I guess the meeting's done. thanks KTC and cfp for coming.
[23:22] KTC: bye bye