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[20:33] mpeel: Agenda is at
[20:33] mpeel:  1. Apologies for Absence
[20:33] mpeel: zeyi and steve
[20:33] mpeel:  2. Minutes of Meeting dated 2009-06-09 - approval & actions
[20:33] mpeel: Meeting minutes at
[20:33] skenmy: Both for technical reasons?
[20:33] mpeel: skenmy: yes
[20:33] mpeel: everyone happy with the minutes from the last meeting?
[20:34] Seddon: yep i believe so
[20:34] AndrewRT: some actions need updating
[20:34] skenmy: all look good to me
[20:35] cfp: as i said to andrew, i'm still waiting on joe steve and zeyi for completed forms
[20:35] cfp: minutes are fine
[20:35] AndrewRT: thanks
[20:35] AndrewRT: shall I go through the actions in turn
[20:35] AndrewRT: > JS to send the tokens of our appreciation to the retiring Directors, tellers and external speakers.
[20:36] AndrewRT: Seddon - has this been done yet?
[20:36] Seddon: I havnt been able to buy the postage yet, I have less than nothing to my name in terms of money atm
[20:36] skenmy: Tell me about it...
[20:36] AndrewRT: do you want to give me a call and I can sort something out?
[20:37] Seddon: AndrewRT: I just need to wait till friday for my pay to come through
[20:37] cfp: i presume the board's happy with you expensing it afterwards
[20:37] AndrewRT: {{discuss}} items will be discussed later
[20:37] AndrewRT: cfp - we previously agreed that, take it we;re still happy
[20:38] AndrewRT: > 13. JS to clarify if the offer of help from WJBScribe means formal written advice that can be relied upon or informal word of mouth assistance.
[20:38] AndrewRT: Seddon coudl you update?
[20:38] Seddon: Its been sent, awaiting a reply
[20:38] AndrewRT: thanks
[20:38] mpeel: {{discuss}} items are now on the agenda under "Matters arising" -
[20:38] skenmy: Thank you!
[20:38] AndrewRT: Seddon - any news on whether we need to pay the fee for online Info?
[20:39] AndrewRT: >Seddon - any news on whether _speakers_ need to pay the fee for online Info?
[20:39] AndrewRT: that's Online Information 2009, the conference I mean
[20:39] Seddon: AndrewRT: cf to July 6th, will be calling the organisers to discuss the cost and us speaking etc
[20:40] AndrewRT: ok thanks
[20:40] AndrewRT: ok - I don't think there are any other actions that need to be discussed at this stage
[20:40] AndrewRT: is there anything else others want to discuss?
[20:41] Seddon: nothing from the actions i dont think
[20:41] AndrewRT: (apart from the items marked "discuss" whcih will be taken later)
[20:41] mpeel: I'm happy
[20:41] skenmy: Happy here!
[20:41] mpeel: 3. Matters arising
[20:41] mpeel:  3.1. Business cards (PW)
[20:41] mpeel: skenmy?
[20:42] skenmy: We need to decide where we are going with this, basically
[20:42] cfp: have you got that quote down at all? investigated card printers who will do smaller batches
[20:42] skenmy: cfp - smaller runs inevitably incurs higher prices due to the increased CPC
[20:42] skenmy: bear in mind that the quote I forwarded was for 800 cards
[20:43] skenmy: Not everyone wants business cards
[20:43] skenmy: and, as noted on the email liist, I am willing to pay for my own
[20:43] AndrewRT: I suggested that we throw this open to members and say they can have business cards if they're willing to pay for them
[20:43] cfp: well that one i linked to was reasonably cheap even for 50s.
[20:43] AndrewRT: is everyone happy with that idea?
[20:43] mpeel: do we need individualised cards at the time? Would it be possible to just get a standardised one done now, and do individualised ones in the future?
[20:43] skenmy: AndrewRT, I supported that idea
[20:43] mpeel: AndrewRT: am happy with that
[20:44] skenmy: can we just clarify
[20:44] skenmy: Members are able to purchase the "generalised" cards?
[20:44] Seddon: That would make sense
[20:44] AndrewRT: not necessarily - they can have personalised ones if they want
[20:44] skenmy: right
[20:44] AndrewRT: including names and job titled
[20:44] AndrewRT: titles
[20:44] AndrewRT: obvoiusly approved ones!
[20:44] mpeel: I'd prefer generalised ones - most members won't have job titles...
[20:44] Seddon: AndrewRT: so a good idea would be to create a standard template
[20:44] skenmy: i'm not sure on the state of play with distributing that template outside of the internal membership
[20:45] skenmy: If the board is happy with me doing so, I will go ahead and pay for my own cards?
[20:45] Seddon: skenmy: well essentially itll only be members acting on chapter business
[20:45] AndrewRT: generalised ones are cheaper - the point is you throw it open to members to decide for themselves
[20:45] • skenmy nods
[20:46] Seddon: skenmy: i see no problem, but we should agree on a design
[20:46] skenmy: Seddon, sure
[20:46] Seddon: prehaps getting the membership involved in designed?
[20:46] Seddon: designing? *
[20:46] AndrewRT: surely design = WMUk logo?
[20:46] skenmy: I have forwarded the "official" design to the wmail list already
[20:46] AndrewRT: isn't there a Wikimedia Foundation standard for this
[20:46] mpeel: AndrewRT: where does that logo go, what fonts are used, what information is given, what's on the back, ...
[20:46] skenmy: which I have forwarded already
[20:46] skenmy: did you not get the email?
[20:47] AndrewRT:    
[20:47] • Seddon hates the "official design" but if have to go with that then i suppose i could put up with it
[20:47] Seddon: :
[20:47] Seddon: p:P
[20:47] Seddon:                          
[20:47] skenmy: I'm personally quite a fan of it
[20:47] AndrewRT: yeah seddon, me too
[20:47] Seddon: i just dont like the portrait layout
[20:47] effeietsanders joined the chat room.
[20:47] Seddon: and it being rounded seems a little ott but thats just me 
[20:48] skenmy: The portrait layout is what makes it unique, IMO
[20:48] Seddon: anyway moving forward
[20:48] skenmy: rounded is pretty 
[20:48] skenmy: can I propose we continue discussions on the mailing list?
[20:48] Seddon: agreed
[20:49] AndrewRT: coudl we take a steer from the meeting?
[20:49] Seddon: a steer?
[20:49] AndrewRT: mainly - do we go with the WMF one or redesign it?
[20:49] skenmy: I am a fan of the WMF design. It's sleek, simple, and attractive, and gets the point across
[20:50] skenmy: I have it from Jay that rounded corners are optional if it will bring costs down
[20:50] AndrewRT: I woudl prefer we go with the WMF design
[20:50] AndrewRT: easier, less work for us and keeps all the chapters looking the same
[20:51] skenmy: echo Andrew
[20:51] mpeel: can anyone use the WMF design? Does anyone have InDesign?
[20:51] skenmy: I do
[20:51] AndrewRT: ah excellent
[20:51] mpeel: ok; great
[20:51] skenmy: I already have the design in a printable format
[20:51] mpeel: shall we discuss on the mailing list, then, and move to the next topic?
[20:51] skenmy: Yep!
[20:51] AndrewRT: I'd rather we decided tonight
[20:52] AndrewRT: isn't that what meetings are for, making decisions?
[20:52] mpeel: AndrewRT: I'm not sure we're at the decision-making point yet, are we?
[20:52] AndrewRT: we can decide now whether to go with the WMF design or redesign it ourselves
[20:52] skenmy: I thought we'd decided 
[20:52] AndrewRT: and we can decide whether to pay for board members' cards or not
[20:52] • Seddon votes WMF
[20:52] mpeel: WMF, tweaked as necessary
[20:53] mpeel: (I also thought that had been decided)
[20:53] AndrewRT: ok that's that decided
[20:53] skenmy: WMF, tweaked as necessary
[20:53] mpeel: 3.2. Newsletter (PW)
[20:53] AndrewRT: and are we paying for board members cards or asking them to pay for them themselves?
[20:53] skenmy: #3.2 - I will dicuss during Item #5
[20:53] cfp: if we can do small runs then we should pay
[20:54] Seddon: agrees with cfp
[20:54] AndrewRT: we = Board?
[20:54] mpeel: my view: pay for standard cards; if people want custom ones then they should pay (for now...)
[20:54] mpeel: * we pay for standard cards
[20:54] AndrewRT: standard = no name?
[20:54] mpeel: yes
[20:54] AndrewRT: I'm happy with that
[20:54] Seddon: mpeel: that makes sense
[20:54] skenmy: That makes sense.
[20:54] cfp: doesn't it rather defeat the point of having a business card if it doesn't have your name on it?
[20:55] cfp: they'd just have the board@ email address?
[20:55] AndrewRT: well, yes, in a way
[20:55] AndrewRT: For me, I was just going to get some and pay for them myself
[20:55] mpeel: not entirely - pointing people towards the website and standard email addresses is useful in itself
[20:56] mpeel: if specific info is needed, then it can always be written on
[20:56] AndrewRT: cfp - would you prefer the board to pay for board members' personalised cards?
[20:56] mpeel: the approach can always be changed in the future, when we have more money - but for now, I think that's a sensible compromise between funds and needs...
[20:57] cfp: well look from the top google result i found a pretty cheap one sided solution which we could afford (with individual cards)
[20:57] skenmy: I agree with mpeel - funds are a concern for something that could possibly be seen as "trvial"
[20:57] cfp: i'd prioritise individual cards over two sided, colour, rounded corners etc etc
[20:58] AndrewRT: do we have a compromise or shall we put to the vote?
[20:59] AndrewRT: mpeel?
[20:59] cfp: if i understood that 123 print site right we could get 7 lots of 50 delivered for £20 incompatible encoding
[20:59] mpeel: vote I guess - I'm not sure there's an easy compromise
[20:59] AndrewRT: how about we say the Board will spend up to £20 per board member on cards
[21:00] AndrewRT: anything above, member will have to pay themselves?
[21:00] cfp: that's a lot
[21:00] cfp: this was £20 total incompatible encoding
[21:00] skenmy: £20 per board member will cover my original quote incompatible encoding
[21:00] AndrewRT: oh wow
[21:00] AndrewRT: let's make that £5 then!
[21:01] AndrewRT: £35 total
[21:01] skenmy: + any expenses for "generic" cards?
[21:01] Seddon: lets keep it to board for now
[21:01] AndrewRT: agree with skenmy
[21:01] Seddon: when are we gonna have a chance to get them to our members?
[21:02] skenmy: Good point
[21:02] mpeel: Seddon: post, at member's expense...
[21:02] Seddon: possibly the few at meetups but thats it
[21:02] AndrewRT: mpeel beat me to it
[21:02] skenmy: The member would place an order to us, we could comission and forward on
[21:02] AndrewRT: woudl only apply to people like Tango42 doing roles on our behalf
[21:03] mpeel: guys, we're 1/4 of the way through the meeting - can we speed this up?
[21:03] AndrewRT: Is everyonehappy with £35?
[21:03] Seddon: yes £35 on baord is good
[21:03] cfp: yup
[21:03] mpeel: yes
[21:03] AndrewRT: I'll note that as a decision then
[21:03] skenmy: agreed!
[21:03] AndrewRT: skenmy to action I presume
[21:03] • skenmy nods
[21:03] mpeel: ok, moving on. 4. Reports
[21:03] AndrewRT: mpeel - thanks for bearing with me
[21:04] mpeel: 4.1. Secretary (AT)
[21:04] mpeel: Report at
[21:04] mpeel: Anything further to add, or any comments/questions?
[21:04] AndrewRT: any questions?
[21:04] cfp: none from me. brb.
[21:04] skenmy: Noted privately.
[21:05] mpeel: HMRC response - can you confirm that this has been sent?
[21:05] AndrewRT: yes it has
[21:05] mpeel: thanks
[21:05] AndrewRT: There was some confusion at the last meeting
[21:05] AndrewRT: about who would approach the Foundation
[21:05] AndrewRT: when I did the minutes Itook it as my action
[21:05] AndrewRT: so only sent the email late last week
[21:05] AndrewRT: they didn't get back to me
[21:06] AndrewRT: hence I sent the letter as was with only cfp's friend's minor changes
[21:06] skenmy: so we have sent our response re: charitable status?
[21:06] AndrewRT: yes
[21:06] skenmy: That is good news.
[21:06] AndrewRT: put in the post this morning
[21:06] skenmy: (and a topic for the newsletter!)
[21:06] AndrewRT: fingers crossed now
[21:06] AndrewRT: ah yes!
[21:06] AndrewRT: mike has asked me to put a copy on the wiki
[21:06] AndrewRT: which I will fo
[21:06] AndrewRT: _do_
[21:06] skenmy: private or public?
[21:07] AndrewRT: public
[21:07] AndrewRT: with personal details removed
[21:07] AndrewRT: is that ok?
[21:07] • skenmy nods
[21:07] skenmy: Sounds good. Can you get a holding page for the letter up ASAP so I can include a link?
[21:07] AndrewRT: sure
[21:08] AndrewRT: any other qs on my report?
[21:08] skenmy: None.
[21:08] mpeel: we already have a page -
[21:08] mpeel: it just needs updating
[21:08] Seddon: none here
[21:08] skenmy: thanks, mpeel
[21:08] AndrewRT: ah yes good point mpeel!
[21:08] mpeel:  4.2. Treasurer (TH)
[21:09] mpeel: Report at
[21:09] cfp: any questions?
[21:09] mpeel: none here
[21:09] AndrewRT: none from me
[21:09] mpeel: AndrewRT, skenmy, Seddon?
[21:10] skenmy: none
[21:10] Seddon: none here
[21:10] AndrewRT: Tango42>cfp: I have a question
[21:10] Seddon: cfp has a question
[21:10] Seddon: snap
[21:10] mpeel: Tango42: Has any progress been made on working out what we need to do to use direct debits?
[21:11] cfp: <+cfp> we looked at this a while ago
[21:11] cfp: <+cfp> we have to have had an account for at least a year
[21:11] cfp: this was the same whatever bank we went with
[21:11] AndrewRT: so, look again inJan 2010!
[21:11] cfp: so ask me again next year
[21:13] cfp: move on?
[21:13] mpeel:  4.3. Chair (MP)
[21:13] mpeel: Report at
[21:13] mpeel: Nothing else to report; any comments/questions?
[21:13] AndrewRT: Web page
[21:13] AndrewRT: Is that your responsibility mpeel?
[21:13] mpeel: which web page?
[21:14] AndrewRT:    
[21:14] AndrewRT: the wiki content I mean
[21:14] mpeel: that's everyone's responsibility... 
[21:14] AndrewRT: hehe
[21:14] mpeel: depending on which part
[21:14] AndrewRT: there's been a bit of work done on it but a bit more needed
[21:14] mpeel: which bits?
[21:14] AndrewRT:    
[21:14] AndrewRT: mianly
[21:15] Seddon: AndrewRT: the main page is somewhat of an ongoing project, iv tried to make it look better but it needs more
[21:15] mpeel: be bold, make changes, everyone will revert or edit as needed... 
[21:15] AndrewRT: ok, so not as part of the chairs report then
[21:15] Seddon: AndrewRT: It is my plan to set up an online team to mange the website
[21:16] Seddon: AndrewRT: I need to discuss in depth with skenmy though first
[21:16] AndrewRT: ah excellent
[21:16] mpeel: Seddon: do you want to discuss that at the next meeting?
[21:16] AndrewRT: part of your report then!!
[21:16] AndrewRT:                          
[21:16] Seddon: mpeel: yes, it needs the details worked on
[21:16] Seddon: AndrewRT: not quite yet 
[21:17] mpeel: I'll put a discussion item about it in the agenda, then.
[21:17] AndrewRT: no other qs from me on your report mpeel
[21:17] mpeel:  4.5. Corporate relations (SV)
[21:17] mpeel: Report at
[21:17] mpeel: sadly steve's not here...
[21:17] mpeel: any points that we need to discuss?
[21:18] skenmy: BBC Meeting is tomorrow
[21:18] AndrewRT: none from me
[21:18] Seddon: I should be able to answer most questions
[21:18] skenmy: other than that, nothing to discuss
[21:18] Seddon: none is even better
[21:18] Seddon: none from me either
[21:19] mpeel: ok, continuing.
[21:19] mpeel:  5. Volunteers / Membership (PW) (~15 mins)
[21:19] skenmy: okay
[21:19] mpeel: skenmy: you have until 21.40...
[21:19] • Seddon wonders if i had a report
[21:19] Seddon: if done one anyway 
[21:19] Seddon: iv*
[21:19] skenmy: My primary discussion points are:
[21:19] skenmy: 1) How can we reach out to non-members and encourage them to join? Incentives?
[21:20] skenmy: 2) How can we engage existing members, some of whome are approaching membership renewal?
[21:20] skenmy: Ideas on a postcard, please
[21:20] skenmy: (or IRC channel)
[21:21] AndrewRT: well, my idea was members only merchandising
[21:21] skenmy: I like it.
[21:21] Seddon: my idea, participation is the key
[21:21] AndrewRT: coudl you summarise the emails with Mike at WMF or would you like me to?
[21:21] cfp: it still seems worthwhile to launch a (nother?) wp spamming campaign targeted at editors in the uk and contributing to uk projects
[21:21] skenmy: Could you, please, Andrew?
[21:22] skenmy: Seddon, but how? What can we get them involved in? (discussion stimulator rather than a "we do nothing!")
[21:22] AndrewRT: ok - Mike is happy in principle with us using WMF trademarks for members only merchandising
[21:22] skenmy: cfp - okie dokie. Did we get a "harvest" of the ones to target?
[21:22] cfp: there's an old list at User:Cfp/Sandbox1
[21:23] cfp: sorted by how much they edit
[21:23] AndrewRT: the authority to do so will be in an exchange of emails
[21:23] cfp: so you just want to hit the top 250 or something
[21:23] skenmy: Excellent
[21:23] Seddon: cfp: makes sense
[21:23] AndrewRT: he has asked us to write an email setting out what we want to do and he will reply saying yes or no
[21:23] AndrewRT: I've passed it to skenmy to write this email
[21:24] cfp: i think the problem is mostly just that people still don't know about us. i can't imagine anyone's going to be that persuaded to join by the prospect of then being able to buy a t-shirt
[21:24] mpeel: I can use AWB to send messages around to people, if that's of use.
[21:24] AndrewRT: are you ok do this?
[21:24] skenmy: You did?
[21:24] skenmy: I'm okay to do it, in any case
[21:24] skenmy: Will run it past the Board before I send, though
[21:24] AndrewRT: please - thanks
[21:24] AndrewRT: cfp - I agree, this isn't a golden bullet by any means
[21:24] AndrewRT: but possibly a quick win
[21:25] mpeel: there's the support angle - become a member to support our activities (e.g. X, Y, Z)
[21:25] AndrewRT: cfp - Mike and I have already sent quite a bit of talkspam around the main targets
[21:25] AndrewRT: I'm not sure there's much left!
[21:25] cfp: no i guess.
[21:25] AndrewRT: we could do with improving our standard advertising material
[21:26] AndrewRT: such as {{welcome}} on
[21:27] mpeel: members only events might be good - e.g. if we could follow WMAU's lead, and organize a meeting / behind-the-scenes tour with a museum for members
[21:27] cfp: way back when i first sought out the uk chapter (before wmuk v1) my thought was along the line of the "no taxation without representation" mantra (where taxation here is donation)
[21:27] cfp: i still think the possibility of having a say is the greatest thing we can offer
[21:28] mpeel: cfp: having a say with what?
[21:28] mpeel: or rather, about what?
[21:28] skenmy: People ask me "why should I join WMUK?"
[21:28] AndrewRT: can we use the chapter selected seats as a recruitment tool?
[21:28] cfp: well having a say with the running of wmuk who themselves have a say in choosing board members etc
[21:28] skenmy: What should I (we) be saying?
[21:28] cfp: also having a say about where your money goes
[21:29] mpeel: given the increase in membership applications prior to the AGM, and the sharp drop-off afterwards, it does seem that having a say is a big part in the motivation of our members thus far.
[21:29] skenmy: Can I just mention, as I want to wind this up to move on, that the Drive page is a wiki page - please jot ideas down!
[21:29] cfp: within the broad pantheon of wupporting wiki stuff
[21:29] AndrewRT: skenmy - is it still possible to have a goal of 100 members by the AGM?
[21:30] skenmy: Hmm
[21:30] skenmy: I would love to see it.
[21:30] AndrewRT: seems a long shot at the moment
[21:30] AndrewRT: I'm not really seeing how we're going to get there at this rate
[21:30] skenmy: I don't think it's unreachable, but it would require a sustained joining rate
[21:30] AndrewRT: I suppose once the initiatives start running we'll be able to get more people joinign up
[21:30] skenmy: Yes
[21:31] mpeel: AndrewRT: definitely
[21:31] AndrewRT: so - look out for participative initiatives then!
[21:31] skenmy: Right, I have one more quick point to make
[21:31] skenmy: Newsletter
[21:31] AndrewRT: ah yes please?
[21:31] AndrewRT: what do you want in it?
[21:31] skenmy: I have it in a ready state to be distributed tonight - I apologise for missing the deadline
[21:32] AndrewRT: looks a wee bit thin?
[21:32] skenmy: I want stories in ASAP for the July edition so we can get it out early
[21:32] skenmy: AndrewRT, I have an extra piece sitting in my edit window
[21:32] AndrewRT: ah!
[21:32] AndrewRT: on HMRC?
[21:32] skenmy: yup
[21:32] AndrewRT: excellent
[21:33] skenmy: mpeel, you able to distribute to talk pages tonight / tomorrow?
[21:33] AndrewRT: have we got any reports back from the last meetups?
[21:33] mpeel: tomorrow evening would be best from my POV
[21:33] • skenmy nods
[21:34] skenmy: I will post my final draft tonight
[21:34] AndrewRT: is the paypal nw this month?
[21:34] AndrewRT: if so that could nbe covered
[21:34] skenmy: everyone can hack mercielssly at it, and we distribute this tomorrow evening?
[21:34] mpeel: paypal wasn't in the last newsletter
[21:34] AndrewRT: shall we mention about Wikimania 2013 in Manchester?
[21:34] cfp: oh ok. didnt' occur to me to put it in
[21:34] cfp: i'll add something
[21:35] skenmy: thanks, cfp
[21:35] cfp: (about paypal)
[21:35] skenmy: mind the edit conflict
[21:35] mpeel: skenmy: is there a summary section coming too?
[21:35] AndrewRT: could we have a mention of my Imperial College interview as well
[21:35] skenmy: mpeel - that is done
[21:35] skenmy: AndrewRT, July issue?
[21:35] AndrewRT: and chapter selected seats?
[21:35] AndrewRT: skenmy - why not june issue?
[21:35] skenmy: I am wary of cramming it all into June and leaving nothing for the quick publish date of July
[21:36] mpeel: skenmy: thanks, that was quick. 
[21:36] skenmy: mpeel - it's been sitting in my edit window 
[21:36] mpeel: when are we aiming to get the july one out?
[21:36] AndrewRT: skenmy - what I think you need to do is go through all the board agendas to get all the things we've done
[21:36] skenmy: early July, in line with our decision to try and bring the date back
[21:36] skenmy: possibly the first week?
[21:37] AndrewRT: As I say, atm it's looking a bit thin in terms of "what we've done"
[21:37] skenmy: Then let's beef up the July issue. Or we could "miss" the June issue, and have a bumper issue in July?
[21:37] AndrewRT: it's up to you of course
[21:37] skenmy: Make it a bi-monthly
[21:37] AndrewRT: no, I'd rather keep to monthly
[21:38] mpeel: IMO it's better to have it in the upcoming issue, then save it - more things always come along for the next issue...
[21:38] skenmy: (i'm over my time)
[21:38] skenmy: Okay. My final draft is posted, anything else to add, please do ASAP
[21:38] mpeel: monthly is much better
[21:38] AndrewRT: ok
[21:38] AndrewRT: when to send?
[21:38] skenmy: Monthly issues will always have less news than less frequent periodicals
[21:38] mpeel: tomorrow eve, ~ 6pm
[21:38] skenmy: We have to trade that off.
[21:39] AndrewRT: ok - so I have till then to get my changes in!
[21:39] skenmy: even if you only have time to dump basic info on a story in, do so and I can copyedit throughout the day
[21:39] AndrewRT: thanks skenmy
[21:39] mpeel: I'd rather see a bi-monthly report (or a quarterly one) as something more substantial - a PDF that can be printed and sent around, for example.
[21:39] mpeel: ... in addition to the current monthly wiki one, perhaps.
[21:39] skenmy: in addition to or as a replacement of our monthly newsletter?
[21:39] mpeel: addition - different audiences
[21:40] skenmy: Perhaps we could ask the membership what they want?
[21:40] AndrewRT: yeah good idea
[21:40] mpeel: ok
[21:40] skenmy: I'll write a story in tomorrow asking for input
[21:40] AndrewRT: ask them in the newsletter 
[21:40] mpeel: wrapping up... do we have specific actions on people?
[21:40] skenmy: action all to add any changes by 6pm tomorrow
[21:40] AndrewRT: skenmy to finish draft, mpeel to distribute?
[21:41] skenmy: action me and you to distribute at 6pm tomorrow
[21:41] mpeel: sounds good
[21:41] skenmy: I will copyedit throughout the day
[21:41] mpeel: any non-newsletter actions, from the discussion above?
[21:41] AndrewRT: skenmy to draft trademark request to WMF
[21:41] skenmy: action me to continue working on drive materials aswell
[21:41] AndrewRT: I think that was it
[21:41] AndrewRT: ok
[21:42] skenmy: moving on!
[21:42] skenmy: (I stole some of Zeyi's time :P)
[21:42] mpeel: could someone look into what merchandise we could make for members, where from, how much, etc.?
[21:42] skenmy: action me if no-one else?
[21:43] AndrewRT: erm - what about
[21:43] AndrewRT: cfp had some dealings with them re WikiLovesArt
[21:43] cfp: they seem to like us
[21:43] AndrewRT: do they do this kind of stuff?
[21:43] skenmy: shall i get in touch?
[21:43] cfp: i can pass on their contact details
[21:43] skenmy: please do!
[21:43] mpeel: they're more printing than merchandise
[21:44] AndrewRT: dont they do stuff like T-shirts?
[21:44] mpeel: doesn't look like -
[21:44] cfp: no they don't do t-shirts i don't think.
[21:44] mpeel: moving on (thanks skenmy)
[21:44] AndrewRT: oh ok then
[21:44] mpeel:  6. Initiatives (ZH) (~15 mins)
[21:45] mpeel: delay until the next meeting?
[21:45] AndrewRT: ok
[21:45] mpeel: seeing as zeyi's not here
[21:45] AndrewRT: I had a chat with ZH on this
[21:45] AndrewRT: shall we approve the timeline she's done?
[21:45] AndrewRT:    
[21:45] mpeel: at ?
[21:45] AndrewRT: yes
[21:45] mpeel: I'd rather see the third item brought forward a bit...
[21:46] cfp: anyone mind if i add "and costing" to the third
[21:46] AndrewRT: The first one only gives us till next Tuesday
[21:46] AndrewRT: cfp - no please do
[21:46] AndrewRT: unless we do #1 tonight that'll be late
[21:46] mpeel: perhaps change to 30 July / 30 August / 15 October?
[21:47] AndrewRT: I'd be ok with that mpeel
[21:47] AndrewRT: pity to delay things but I suppose we should get this right
[21:47] mpeel: btw, is the understanding that we're doing at least three initiatives - we can do more as and when they arise?
[21:47] AndrewRT: yes that was my understanding
[21:48] AndrewRT: _at least_ three
[21:48] AndrewRT: thinking about it, I'd rather we had 15 July / 31 July / 15 October
[21:49] AndrewRT: shouldn't take too long to get project leaders in place assuming someone is pushing on it
[21:49] mpeel: I'd be happy with those first two dates, but think that leaves too long between getting the list of members and setting down the plan
[21:49] skenmy: 15 July / 31 July / 31 August ?
[21:50] AndrewRT: and we've got lots of ideas from
[21:50] AndrewRT: I'm happy with skenmy's
[21:50] mpeel: also happy with skenmy's
[21:50] cfp: fine by me
[21:50] AndrewRT: btw, we're due to hear back from teh Foundation on our £5,000 grant application by next Tuesday
[21:50] mpeel: so long as zeyi's happy, shall we mark that as approved then?
[21:50] skenmy: excellent
[21:51] skenmy: AndrewRT, 30th?
[21:51] AndrewRT: has someone updated the wiki?
[21:51] skenmy: or 7th?
[21:51] AndrewRT: I though it was end of the month
[21:51] AndrewRT: yes - a week today
[21:51] • skenmy nods
[21:51] skenmy: That's good news
[21:51] mpeel: shall we move on?
[21:52] AndrewRT: mpeel has someone updated the wiki?
[21:52] skenmy: with the new timeline?
[21:52] mpeel: I'll do that in a few mins
[21:52] AndrewRT: yes please
[21:52] AndrewRT: thanks
[21:52] mpeel:  7. Fundraising (TH) (~15 mins) - cfp?
[21:52] skenmy: can do
[21:52] skenmy: oh, mpeel can
[21:52] skenmy:                          
[21:53] cfp: ok there are some thoughts up here:
[21:53] mpeel: AndrewRT: is updated
[21:53] cfp:    
[21:53] AndrewRT: cheers mpeel
[21:53] mpeel: could you walk us through them, cfp?
[21:53] cfp: first question is do we want to honour andrew's promise not to spend donations on admin
[21:54] AndrewRT: er - I'm not sure I'd call it a promise!
[21:54] cfp: yeah ok.
[21:54] skenmy: It was more a wish from my point of view
[21:54] mpeel: I'm wary of two things: 1) there's a very fuzzy line between admin and non-admin, 2) we probably don't have enough members to cover all admin costs
[21:54] Seddon: what are we calling admin?
[21:54] AndrewRT: Teh comment was made when explaining how we came to the decision on what to charge for membership
[21:54] mpeel: especially, in the long term, if we set up an office etc.
[21:54] AndrewRT: I still think it's a good thing to aspire to
[21:54] cfp: it's just that if that's the goal then our energies would be best focused on expanding membership anyway we can
[21:55] skenmy: We do need to expand membership.
[21:55] AndrewRT: good point cfp
[21:55] AndrewRT: well, get the initiatives going, people then join, then we have enough money!
[21:55] cfp: if we're prepared to spend donations on admin then it makes sense for us to do general fundraising
[21:55] skenmy: from wiki:
[21:55] skenmy: Risk of chicken and egg situation: we can't do anything because we don't have the money, we can't fund-raise because we're not doing anything (or at least we're not doing anything that requires money).
[21:56] AndrewRT: I don't like the idea of using donations to fund admin
[21:56] AndrewRT: It doesn't encourage people to donate
[21:56] cfp: my suggestion was that we fund raise specifically for the initiatives we're performing
[21:56] AndrewRT: yes I think that's a good idea
[21:56] cfp: no me neither.
[21:56] cfp: there's a fairly obvious sequence of steps to go through once we have a well defined goal
[21:57] cfp: (approach press/large donors etc etc.)
[21:57] AndrewRT: just to let you know - I'm now on babysitting duty, but I'll be around
[21:57] cfp: general fund raising without a large goal overlaps a lot with looking for membership
[21:57] AndrewRT: shout if you need me
[21:57] cfp: (most approaches for one would also work for the other)
[21:58] cfp: the most relevant point i took from rand's email for us
[21:58] cfp: is that when we do something, we really need to be pushing for donations more than we have done previously
[21:58] mpeel: definitely
[21:59] cfp: so e.g. in retrospect, WLA@V&A was a prime opportunity to get new donors
[21:59] cfp: once we have donors then all the stuff about treating them nicely comes into play etc
[21:59] cfp: but at the moment we have 2
[21:59] cfp: (not including members)
[21:59] mpeel: how could donors have been solicited at WLA@V&A?
[22:00] mpeel: would we have been asking for cash, or ...?
[22:00] cfp: prominent donation messages on the handout
[22:00] cfp: buckets for cash
[22:01] cfp: however perverse it sounds i really think buckets for cash at events or hell in the street could be quite useful for tiding us over until the first WMF drive
[22:01] skenmy: Are we permitted to do a "street drive"?
[22:02] cfp: (and even after, as it's unclear how profitable the drive will be for us. as it currently stands the "donate to a chapter" button is pretty small on the page. WMDE have a massive advantage over us in having a chapter for the language)
[22:02] cfp: once we're a charity we'll be able to
[22:02] cfp: and really any fundraising is going to be a bit limited prior to that
[22:02] mpeel: there will be a lot of discussion about donation buttons with the next fundraiser, I would expect.
[22:02] cfp: "so why should i give you money? you're not even a charity?"
[22:02] mpeel: stress "non-profit" then
[22:03] cfp: yeah and we're legally bound by our articles, but we can change them.
[22:03] cfp: accepting "non-profit" requires a certain degree of trust on the part of the donor
[22:04] mpeel: true
[22:04] cfp: given we have limited "PR capital", (i.e. we can only spam news organisations so much) if charitability is on the horizon (?) waiting would seem sensible to me
[22:04] mpeel: in terms of on-the-streets fundraising, sure, waiting is sensible.
[22:04] mpeel: In terms of fundraising at events, or via the internet, I'm less convinced.
[22:04] cfp: but also with press release driven fundraising
[22:05] cfp: events, you're right no need to stop
[22:05] mpeel: it doesn't need to have a press release involved - just having a general drive, and getting the word out informally.
[22:05] cfp: by internet fundraising i presume you mean doing what we're doing in our membership drive? spamming basically
[22:06] mpeel: not quite - by saying "we need money for this specific thing - please give us some"
[22:06] mpeel: your "directed fundraising" section
[22:06] cfp: oh sure. i agree then.
[22:06] skenmy: \So should we set ourselves a "goal"
[22:06] skenmy: ?
[22:06] skenmy: Purchase a new server?
[22:07] skenmy: (fof example)
[22:07] mpeel: how much use is a new server to the Wikimedia projects?
[22:07] skenmy: *for
[22:07] cfp: well i was presuming the initiatives would throw something up
[22:07] skenmy: mpeel - just an example from the wiki
[22:07] cfp: the schools project is ready to eat our money if i understand right
[22:07] cfp: not sure about the others?
[22:08] Seddon: (circa 15 minutes left)
[22:08] cfp: but i suggest if people do think a server would be useful they propose it as an initiative
[22:08] skenmy: right
[22:08] skenmy: so fundraise for initiatives?
[22:08] mpeel: definitely - we need to develop initiatives
[22:08] cfp: and we take the fund raising drives lead from the outcome of our initiatives discussion
[22:08] cfp: exactly
[22:08] mpeel: once we have those in place, is there any issues around fundraising for them?
[22:09] mpeel: do we need to start setting in place this suggested Fund-raising committee?
[22:09] cfp: no i don't think so. it will be fairly straight forward to go to the existing membership, to the press, to large donors etc etc
[22:09] cfp: that no was to your first question
[22:10] Seddon: mpeel: i think that at some point not too far into the future we will need a fundraising committee
[22:10] cfp: yeah at some point it'd certainly be useful.
[22:10] Seddon: mpeel: before the annual fundraiser definitely
[22:10] cfp: it's of most use for organising general fundraising
[22:11] cfp: so perhaps it should be the "fundraising and membership promoting committee"
[22:11] Seddon: Tango42>The WMF has plenty of servers. Let's concentrate on the UK until we have money to burn.
[22:11] cfp: since as i've said, general fundraising and membership begging are pretty similar
[22:11] mpeel: skenmy: what are your thoughts on that?
[22:12] AndrewRT: isn't fundraising + membership = volunteers outreach (i.e. skenmy's role)
[22:12] skenmy: Indifferent - it was just an idea I spotted on the wiki
[22:12] skenmy: oh wait
[22:12] skenmy: for the comittee?
[22:12] mpeel: skenmy: yes, committee
[22:12] Seddon: yes
[22:12] cfp: yeah i confess i did originally understand my role as being more on the admin side of these things
[22:12] skenmy: I'm happy for a committee to be formed in the future
[22:12] skenmy: Right now I'm not sure if it's a great idea
[22:13] cfp: ok i think i'd agree that we're not quite tehre yet as well
[22:13] cfp: we all only have so much time
[22:14] cfp: tango also proposed we move to civicrm, which again seems a good idea in the long run.
[22:14] skenmy: perhaps slightly overkill for now
[22:14] cfp: but again, whether our 2 donors warrant it is a bit dubious
[22:14] mpeel: what are we lacking before we set up the committee?
[22:14] cfp: yeah
[22:14] cfp: something for them to do
[22:14] skenmy: That could be something the fundraising committee could administer
[22:14] cfp: i guess a committee would be very useful for approaching large donors
[22:14] cfp: we could hit a lot more bases
[22:14] mpeel: cfp: setting that down could be part of their job
[22:15] cfp: also perhaps for running raffles
[22:15] cfp: i'm happy either way, committee, no committee
[22:15] cfp: many things could be done in an ad hoc way via appealing to the membership/mailing list
[22:16] cfp: brb. feel free to vote on forming a committee now or later, i'm abstaining
[22:16] Seddon: ok well shall we move on?
[22:17] mpeel: I guess so ... was hoping that a lot more would come out of that discussion.
[22:18] Seddon: i think we should have some email discussion on the format of such commitees
[22:18] AndrewRT: I think it was a good discussion
[22:18] mpeel: I'd much rather see a list of things to take forward
[22:18] AndrewRT: understanding that fundraising comes from initiatives is very important
[22:18] cfp: back
[22:18] AndrewRT: we can pick it up when it comes to deciding on intiatives and plannign them
[22:19] cfp: sounds reasonable
[22:19] mpeel: how big are we aiming, with initiatives, and fundraising as a whole?
[22:19] mpeel: AndrewRT: you said £500 would be enough ... why?
[22:20] cfp: i really think it's in our best interests to not try to grow too fast. we're all learning what we're doing here
[22:21] cfp: we're not going to be WMDE overnight
[22:21] mpeel: at some point (namely, the winter fundraiser), we will need to grow up fast - I'm not sure we'll have much choice
[22:21] mpeel: IMO, we should be aiming bigger earlier, rather than putting it off
[22:21] mpeel: & learning by doing
[22:22] Seddon: I think we need to lay as much of the foundations between now and the fundraiser, achieve whatever we can for free
[22:23] Seddon: Get contacts with as many organisations as we can
[22:23] cfp: we seem to have a strange dichotomy here. either we're going to end up with far too much money without doing anything, or we desperately need to be fundraising now
[22:24] mpeel: the latter's my immediate worry, the former's my long-term worry.
[22:24] Seddon: its half past
[22:24] cfp: i think aiming to have civicrm up by the winter fundraiser makes sense (if it is genuinely going to be so lucrative for us, and we can't just parasite of WMF's CRM then)
[22:25] mpeel: ok, let's move on then...
[22:25] mpeel:  8. AOB
[22:25] mpeel: (none from me)
[22:25] skenmy: none here
[22:25] cfp: none
[22:25] mpeel:  9. Date & content of next meeting
[22:25] skenmy: 7th July?
[22:26] mpeel: can we go for 30 June?
[22:26] Seddon: been talking to Jon Gray from OKF, he will hopefully help us get in contact with the director of the national archives
[22:26] mpeel: I think we need to discuss initiatives ASAP.
[22:26] Seddon: apparently she is very interested in getting re-use of images
[22:27] Seddon: yes, in this instance, an earlier meeting would be useful, we have alot to discuss
[22:27] skenmy: If we must!
[22:27] mpeel: Seddon: that sounds like a good lead
[22:27] mpeel: AndrewRT?
[22:27] mpeel: cfp?
[22:27] mpeel: 30 June OK?
[22:27] AndrewRT: id rather 7th
[22:27] cfp: yeah
[22:28] Seddon: I suggest this, not to discuss matters arising, nor actions in that week, unless necessary
[22:28] cfp: either's fine i guess
[22:28] skenmy: Can we keep the 30th meeting to Initiatives?
[22:28] AndrewRT: do we need to meet weekly?
[22:28] mpeel: ok, so have a general discussion next week, followed by a board meeting on the 7th?
[22:28] skenmy: sounds like a good idea
[22:28] Seddon: yer, next weeks meeting isnt mandatory
[22:28] Seddon: none of them are
[22:28] Seddon: but you know what i mean
[22:29] mpeel: informal meeting, rather than a formal one
[22:29] Seddon: indeed
[22:29] mpeel: ok, I guess that's a wrap. Thanks all for coming.
[22:29] mpeel: <end>


[20:33] mpeel: meeting is starting in #wikimedia-uk-board
[20:35] AndrewRT: Tango: 10. TD agreed to contact the gazette on behalf of WMUK to solicit a pro-bono lawyer
[20:35] AndrewRT: how is that going?
[20:36] Tango42: Sorry, no progress. I'm still on Pacific time! That, and I was away for a few days last week, so all in all, very little time during office hours. I'll try and get up at a sensible time tomorrow and do it (I need to phone my bank as well...).
[20:36] AndrewRT: thanks
[20:47] effeietsanders joined the chat room.
[20:48] Tango42: Re. cards for members - I can't see members needing a significant number of cards. You could just hand out handfuls of general cards at meetups and having some on the table at the AGM. A dozen cards would probably be plenty for most people that aren't going to be actively networking on behalf of the chapter.
[20:48] AndrewRT: hi effe
[20:49] effeietsanders: hi 
[20:49] AndrewRT: am i right in thinking you're in WM-NL?
[20:49] • Seddon pats effeietsanders on the back in an official director way
[20:50] effeietsanders: AndrewRT: you are 
[20:50] effeietsanders: Seddon: eek
[20:50] effeietsanders: director...
[20:50] effeietsanders: brr
[20:50] • effeietsanders prefers board members
[20:50] AndrewRT: what do you guys do for business cards?
[20:50] AndrewRT: do you go with the WMF design
[20:50] effeietsanders: more or less yes
[20:50] effeietsanders: tweaked a bit
[20:50] effeietsanders: although I'm still waiting for my personal cards to be printed
[20:50] AndrewRT: thanks
[20:50] Seddon: effeietsanders: at least we dont have president 
[20:51] AndrewRT: good to know
[20:51] effeietsanders: Seddon: we have a chair
[20:51] effeietsanders: although americans like to call it president
[20:51] Seddon: effe: ditto
[20:51] Tango42: That's not what your chair says
[20:51] effeietsanders: voorzitter
[20:51] effeietsanders: Tango42: that is the word they use in american 
[20:51] effeietsanders: bad luck
[20:51] effeietsanders: in dutch we use voorzitter
[20:51] effeietsanders: not president
[20:52] Tango42: What does voorzitter translate as, literally?
[20:52] effeietsanders: chair 
[20:53] effeietsanders: voorzitten == to preside / to chair
[20:54] Tango42: So your chair was just being pretentious for the benefit of Americans in Berlin? 
[20:55] effeietsanders: I don't know 
[20:56] effeietsanders: we just prefer to use American often
[20:56] effeietsanders: I also use mostly vice president
[20:56] effeietsanders: instead of vice chair
[20:56] • Seddon ponders over whether mpeel is CEO or not
[20:56] AndrewRT: please no
[20:56] effeietsanders: Seddon: he's just "The Boss (R)"
[20:56] AndrewRT: didn't his predecessor style themselves that?
[20:57] • mpeel is just me
[20:57] effeietsanders: wow
[20:57] effeietsanders: "Me, Wikimedia UK"
[20:57] Seddon: AndrewRT: yes, though i now understand that CEO is seperate from the board
[20:57] mpeel: effeietsanders: not literally... 
[20:57] effeietsanders: that puts you on the level Bill Gates 
[20:57] AndrewRT: Seddon - er not normally, corporation CEOs normally sit on the board
[20:57] mpeel: I can't recall KTC ever calling himself CEO... 
[20:58] effeietsanders: Bill wasn't as much CEO, but rather just "Bill Gates"
[20:58] AndrewRT: mpeel - i didn't mean immediate predecessor as you know!
[20:58] mpeel: AndrewRT: I know.  I believe Alison found it useful for getting meetings etc. with people, as CEO's more highly viewed than chair.
[20:59] effeietsanders: Chief of the Council of Chairs
[20:59] effeietsanders: CCO
[20:59] Seddon: mpeel: I typically use plain old director
[21:00] effeietsanders: ehm
[21:00] effeietsanders: CCC
[21:00] effeietsanders: you'll all be chair 
[21:00] • effeietsanders shuts up and let the meeting be serious again
[21:01] Seddon: effeietsanders, this channel is allowed not to be serious
[21:01] Tango42: Usually the CEO is a full-time employee and chair of the board is a part time role (unpaid for charities, paid for other companies). If you're small enough, they can end up being the same thing.
[21:01] Tango42: allowed? I thought it was compulsory.
[21:01] effeietsanders: could someone link me to the agenda btw? 
[21:01] • effeietsanders is wondering is Brussels is on it
[21:01] mpeel: effeietsanders:
[21:02] effeietsanders: thanks 
[21:03] Tango42: mpeel: You're chair. Don't ask, do!
[21:04] Tango42: AndrewRT: Just to correct your terminology: The board doesn't have any money, the money is the company's.
[21:04] AndrewRT: thanks for correcting me
[21:04] AndrewRT: when did I say it did?
[21:05] Tango42: AndrewRT>how about we say the Board will spend up to £20 per board member on cards
[21:05] AndrewRT: ah yes
[21:07] effeietsanders: the board can spend the money of the company 
[21:07] AndrewRT: I meant of course "how about we say the Board will authorise spending up to £20 per board member on cards"
[21:09] Tango42: Yeah, it makes sense that way. I brought it up because I ended up making some latter comments difficult to understand since we had "board paying" (as opposed to individual members paying) and "board cards" (as opposed to cards for generally members) both being abbrev. to "board"
[21:09] Tango42: *it ended up
[21:10] Tango42: cfp: I have a question
[21:10] AndrewRT: go ahead
[21:10] cfp: go on
[21:10] Tango42: Has any progress been made on working out what we need to do to use direct debits?
[21:10] cfp: we looked at this a while ago
[21:11] cfp: we have to have had an account for at least a year
[21:11] Tango42: I only remember looking at it before we decided which bank to use. That's the rules for Co-op?
[21:11] cfp: and hsbc
[21:11] Tango42: ah, same for all banks, ok
[21:11] cfp: etc etc
[21:12] Tango42: is that the only hoop to jump through?
[21:12] cfp: no there are some others around prooving our trustability
[21:12] cfp: but one step at a time
[21:12] cfp: and some processing hoops as well perhaps
[21:13] Tango42: pity it won't be in time for the WMF fundraising drive, but that can't be helped.
[21:13] randmontoya_ left the chat room. (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
[21:15] Tango42: AndrewRT: You see, there's this thing called a "wiki" and it's a webpage that anyone can edit. They're great things, you should check them out sometime! 
[21:15] AndrewRT: yeah I know
[21:15] AndrewRT: and I should really log in too
[21:15] Tango42: BTW, I love the new main page - it's looking great.
[21:15] Tango42: Thanks to the people working on it
[21:16] AndrewRT: what do you think of
[21:17] Seddon: Tango42: Your welcome 
[21:17] Tango42: It's good, I'm just concerned about making the main page too big.
[21:17] AndrewRT: good point - it's to replace the bottom left pain
[21:17] AndrewRT: _pane_
[21:17] Tango42: At the moment it fits perfectly on my screen with no scrolling, which is good
[21:17] Tango42: the "did you know" bit?
[21:18] AndrewRT: yep
[21:18] AndrewRT: yeah good idea!
[21:18] AndrewRT: er - it doesn't on mine tho - fits on too screens
[21:19] Tango42: it's longer than the current pane, but not by too much. Might be ok.
[21:19] Tango42: Add it in, we can revert if it's rubbish
[21:19] AndrewRT: hehe
[21:19] AndrewRT: yeah I'll see what it looks like
[21:19] AndrewRT: I thought it brings the details to life a bit
[21:20] Tango42: and emphasises the key points more
[21:22] mpeel: AndrewRT: perhaps we could have a main page copy/sandbox that anyone can edit?
[21:22] Tango42: that's not a bad idea, but I think this can skip that stage - it's been available for review for a while now
[21:24] AndrewRT: good idea
[21:26] Tango42: There's not a great deal of point getting members who are only in it for the T-shirt (there's £12, but that's it). We need members that will actually do stuff.
[21:26] Tango42: (or course, we need stuff for them to do, as well!)
[21:27] AndrewRT: well - you'll be surprised - apparantly WM-DE has lots of passive members you just pay the membership fee and that's it
[21:27] AndrewRT: it's good for the income!
[21:27] Tango42: Yeah, but they don't serve a great deal of purpose. The money is nice, but I don't think it will be a large portion of our income once we get fundraising up and running
[21:28] Tango42: no need to turn away passive members, but we should concentrate on attracting active members
[21:32] GDonato joined the chat room.
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[21:37] effeietsanders: AndrewRT: not so much for income
[21:37] effeietsanders: because to get there you need to keep the fee low 
[21:37] effeietsanders: but it gives you credibility in conversations if you have more members
[21:38] Tango42: do you know what WMDE charges?
[21:38] AndrewRT: sure - but many members give extra donations at the same time
[21:38] effeietsanders: an association with 1000 members gets more influence then one with 20
[21:38] AndrewRT: particularly sleeping members
[21:38] effeietsanders: hm
[21:38] effeietsanders: I doubt that will be your main source of income
[21:38] AndrewRT: no, true
[21:38] Tango42: I'm not sure they'll give donations that they wouldn't have done had they not been members, though.
[21:38] effeietsanders: I think general donations will be much higher
[21:39] Tango42: I would have thought an association with a big budget would be the main way to get influence (other than throwing the name "Wikipedia" around, which goes a long was in itself)
[21:40] effeietsanders: membership and connections are more worthy in influence then big budget
[21:40] effeietsanders: especially when it comes to policies
[21:40] Tango42: policies? What kind of policies?
[21:40] effeietsanders: mpeel: consider dual reports with one very basic and one more extensive
[21:40] effeietsanders:                          
[21:41] effeietsanders: Tango42: ehm, government policies, museum policies etc
[21:41] AndrewRT: what do WM-NL do?
[21:41] Tango42: what kind of governernment and museum policies?
[21:41] effeietsanders: we have a monthly newsletter and the monthly chapters report
[21:41] effeietsanders: both different a little besides different language
[21:41] Tango42: Do you mean lobbying them to change their policies?
[21:41] mpeel: effeietsanders: both monthly? that's sort of what I was envisaging, but the extensive one being less regular
[21:42] effeietsanders: mpeel: the very short one should be montly yeah
[21:42] effeietsanders: the newsletter is not monthly btw
[21:42] effeietsanders: sorry
[21:42] effeietsanders: not very regular currently
[21:42] effeietsanders: about every second board meeting
[21:42] effeietsanders: whenever there is enough to report 
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[21:56] effeietsanders: you can do a lot that requires money, let people and sponsors pay for it, and offer reduction for members 
[21:56] effeietsanders: and cooperate with CC_UK and let them pay some of it 
[21:57] Tango42: That works for events, it doesn't work so much with other stuff. We have plans to go into schools and try and educate people about Wikipedia (etc.), we're not going to get sponsorship for that, or people to pay for it. We might get grants, but that's just another source of fundraising really.
[21:58] effeietsanders: sure you can find sponsors
[21:58] effeietsanders: many companies sponsor educational projects
[21:59] effeietsanders: or ask the schools to chip in a little money
[21:59] Tango42: I'm not sure how comfortable I would be going into a school and doing advertising. I'm not sure how much the schools would like it either...
[21:59] effeietsanders: no, sponsoring != advertising 
[21:59] Tango42: Schools might do that once we've proved ourselves, but I don't they would without a recommendation
[21:59] Tango42: of course it does
[21:59] effeietsanders: sure not
[21:59] Tango42: You exchange money for publicity, that's advertising
[21:59] effeietsanders: you can express gratitude in press releases, on the website etc
[22:00] effeietsanders: no need to refer in the school to the sponsors
[22:00] Tango42: Perhaps, but we need to be big enough that we can convince potential sponsors that anyone reads our press releases and websites for that.
[22:01] effeietsanders: if the money is not too much, companies won't mind to take their chances 
[22:01] effeietsanders: come on, how much do you really need 
[22:01] effeietsanders: few k?
[22:02] effeietsanders: that is peanuts to many companies 
[22:02] Tango42: For just that kind of event, very little, true.
[22:02] skenmy: I was at the E2BN conference today - I think many of the companies there would love to partner with Wikimedia
[22:03] effeietsanders: and indeed, they don't partner with a small company
[22:03] effeietsanders: but with WIKIPEDIA
[22:03] AndrewRT: E2BN?
[22:03] skenmy: East of England Broadband Network
[22:03] skenmy: (strangely held in Bedfordshire)
[22:04] Tango42: did you approach anyone about Wikimedia UK?
[22:04] skenmy: I was there in a work capacity
[22:04] skenmy: and had very limited time
[22:05] Tango42: To what extent do the general public know (or care about) the difference between "charity" and "non-profit"?
[22:10] Tango42: The WMF has plenty of servers. Let's concentrate on the UK until we have money to burn.
[22:15] Tango42: I think the first thing to decide is what kind of size fundraising we're talking about. Are we talking thousands of pounds? 100's of thousands? what?
[22:16] AndrewRT: I'd say about £500 this year would easily be enough
[22:16] Tango42: "enough"?
[22:17] Tango42: Seddon: Move on? You haven't decided anything...
[22:18] Tango42: At least decide what questions you still need to answer
[22:19] Tango42: Fundraising for specific initiatives won't work as your primary form of fundraising. You can only fundraise for one thing at a time, we want to do more than one initiative at a time.
[22:20] Tango42: If you ask for money for a specific thing that's all you are allowed to spend it on (unless you fill your donation forms with disclaimers saying otherwise, i suppose, but that rather defeats the object)
[22:21] Tango42: We may not be WMDE overnight, but we should be WMFR within a couple of years.
[22:22] Tango42: learn by doing is one of the main reasons I've been suggesting we hold a fundraising drive ASAP, so we have some experience before the big WMF drive
[22:23] Tango42: I hope you aren't thinking the WMF drive will involve sitting back and watching the money roll in from a tiny link on the WMF pages?
[22:23] mpeel: Tango42: I'm not, hopefully it will be a bigger link. 
[22:24] Tango42: Joking aside, you do understand that this is a drive, it's not just a link on a webpage? To make the most of it we will need to take a very active role.
[22:25] Tango42: Setting up CiviCRM is a weekend job
[22:25] mpeel: I'm not sure how active we'll need to be - it depends on how successful we want it to be.
[22:25] Tango42: Well, I want it to be very successful... don't you?
[22:25] cfp: i guess i'm suggesting that we don't want it to be too successful this year
[22:25] cfp: let people give to WMF.
[22:25] Tango42: What kind of fundraising policy is that? We don't want any funds?
[22:26] cfp: no it's a "we don't want more funds than we're qualified to spend"
[22:26] Tango42: You'll find money is surprisingly easy to spend
[22:26] cfp: but it's not easy to spend well
[22:27] cfp: we have legal responsibilities
[22:27] Tango42: Yes, we do, but they aren't too onerous
[22:27] cfp: and the bigger our turnover the more we're going to be scrutinised minutely to see if we're fulfilling those obligations
[22:27] effeietsanders: Tango42: spending is not hard
[22:27] effeietsanders: spending it in a decent way is hard
[22:27] Tango42: The whole point of the turnover thresholds is that you don't need to do difficult stuff until you are big enough to pay a professional to do it
[22:28] effeietsanders: a rule of thumb could be that the money should be more effectively spent then when the WMF would spend it