Meetings/2008-11-25/IRC

#wikimedia-uk-board

Nov 25 20:33:09 <KTC>	right, let's get going
Nov 25 20:33:14 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-25/Agenda
Nov 25 20:33:21 <AndrewRT>	right
Nov 25 20:33:53 <KTC>	we have apologies from Mickey
Nov 25 20:34:02 <KTC>	everyone else are here
Nov 25 20:34:09 <AndrewRT>	can i suggest we appoint a minute secretary?
Nov 25 20:34:38 <AndrewRT>	i'll do it if there's no other volunteers
Nov 25 20:35:35 *	KTC wave to cfp
Nov 25 20:36:06 <cfp>	hey yeah i'm here.
Nov 25 20:36:39 <KTC>	if you want to volunteer yourself, sure. thanks andrew :)
Nov 25 20:37:14 <AndrewRT>	ok that that then
Nov 25 20:37:59 <KTC>	3. Minutes of Last Meeting
Nov 25 20:38:10 <KTC>	AndrewRT, you had a correction that you corrected
Nov 25 20:38:24 <AndrewRT>	sorry i didn't notice WOD had already done that
Nov 25 20:38:32 <AndrewRT>	other than that I'm happy to approve?
Nov 25 20:38:34 <KTC>	okay, anyone else ?
Nov 25 20:40:25 <AndrewRT>	?
Nov 25 20:40:35 <KTC>	i'll take that as a no....
Nov 25 20:40:36 <cfp>	nope they seem fine.
Nov 25 20:40:39 *	mpeel is checking through it
Nov 25 20:40:40 <cfp>	sorry for the delay there
Nov 25 20:41:08 <mpeel>	looks ok
Nov 25 20:41:35 <KTC>	ok. 4.1 of the agenda. Bank account opening
Nov 25 20:41:38 <KTC>	how's that going ?
Nov 25 20:41:40 *	Majorly_ (n=Alex@wikimedia/Majorly) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 20:42:09 *	Majorly_ (n=Alex@wikimedia/Majorly) has left #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 20:42:16 <cfp>	ok well as of today i have all of the documentation
Nov 25 20:42:33 <cfp>	so it will be in the post tomorrow.
Nov 25 20:42:48 <cfp>	i will email a pdf copy of everything to the board after this meeting
Nov 25 20:42:52 <KTC>	<AndrewRT> I've had the M&A and Form 10 certified 
Nov 25 20:42:52 <KTC>	<AndrewRT> and sent to cfp - he's received it
Nov 25 20:42:52 <KTC>	<KTC> wrong channel ;)3
Nov 25 20:42:58 <KTC>	(for the record) :D
Nov 25 20:42:59 <AndrewRT>	sorry!
Nov 25 20:43:14 <AndrewRT>	resolution to discuss later?
Nov 25 20:43:17 <cfp>	so if you want a final scan through you can check it this evening
Nov 25 20:43:24 <cfp>	yes there's a resolution to discuss later.
Nov 25 20:44:09 <cfp>	i've had a few phone calls with the coop to check everything we're doing is ok, and it seems it all is (despite them telling me for a while that everyone needed to sign section 1)
Nov 25 20:44:32 <cfp>	nothing else to report really, we just have to cross our fingers and hope it's all fine
Nov 25 20:45:08 <AndrewRT>	thanks to everyone - particularly cfp for sorting this out
Nov 25 20:45:38 <KTC>	yep :)
Nov 25 20:45:58 <KTC>	4.2 Non-English translation
Nov 25 20:46:10 *	KTC look at email
Nov 25 20:46:27 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Languages
Nov 25 20:47:25 <cfp>	that seems fine.
Nov 25 20:48:13 <cfp>	Note to all watchers: the meeting is temporarily going in camera to discuss necessarily private details of the Wikimania Oxford bid.
Nov 25 20:48:25 <AndrewRT>	i support this
Nov 25 20:58:13 *	Majorly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Nov 25 20:58:19 <cfp>	ok so shall we continue
Nov 25 21:00:00 <KTC>	*nod*
Nov 25 21:00:35 <AndrewRT>	can I put my proposal for the minutes?
Nov 25 21:00:41 <cfp>	that message to the other languages seems fine. i'm happy for that to be sent out.
Nov 25 21:01:16 <cfp>	AndrewRT: i'll answer that question in camera
Nov 25 21:03:12 <AndrewRT>	Right, we're back out of camera
Nov 25 21:03:23 <AndrewRT>	for the minutes the following has been agreed:
Nov 25 21:03:54 <AndrewRT>	User:Seddon approached the board about sponsorship. The Board thanked his for his efforts so far and confirmed we are happy for him to pursue his current investigations
Nov 25 21:04:01 <AndrewRT>	Thanks Seddon!
Nov 25 21:04:37 <cfp>	any objections to that message being sent out to the other languages then?
Nov 25 21:04:48 <KTC>	no
Nov 25 21:04:56 <mpeel>	are you planning on watching everywhere that the message is posted?
Nov 25 21:05:04 <AndrewRT>	can i just have a quick look pls
Nov 25 21:05:50 <AndrewRT>	yes im fine with that
Nov 25 21:06:24 <mpeel>	I'd wiki-link "MetaWiki" and "the wikimedia-uk mailing list."
Nov 25 21:06:27 <AndrewRT>	someone should watch to make sure we pick up on any responses
Nov 25 21:06:41 <cfp>	i presume WoD will
Nov 25 21:07:07 <cfp>	mpeel: you might want to just make that change since wod isn't here
Nov 25 21:07:08 <mpeel>	do we want to be a bit more inclusive, rather than focussing purely on the UK members of the wikis?
Nov 25 21:07:14 <mpeel>	good point.
Nov 25 21:07:23 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - what did you have in mind?
Nov 25 21:07:24 <mpeel>	forgot that wod was the proposer.
Nov 25 21:08:26 <mpeel>	I don't have a rephrasing in mind, but the second paragraph looks to be very focused on UK residents.
Nov 25 21:08:47 <AndrewRT>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Requirements_for_future_chapters states:
Nov 25 21:08:50 <cfp>	well we are wiki UK limited
Nov 25 21:09:02 <AndrewRT>	Unlike projects, which are language based, chapters are entities which need a legal base. This implies that they must be anchored in a country/jurisdiction which offers them the base for their legal structure. This base should be in the region in which they wish to serve.
Nov 25 21:09:04 <mpeel>	e.g. things like "in order to be the chapter for the whole of the UK" could be rephrased as "in order for the charity to be inclusive".
Nov 25 21:09:18 <AndrewRT>	"Unlike projects, which are language based, chapters are entities which need a legal base. This implies that they must be anchored in a country/jurisdiction which offers them the base for their legal structure. This base should be in the region in which they wish to serve."
Nov 25 21:09:37 <AndrewRT>	Our base is the UK and I think we have to focus on the UK
Nov 25 21:10:14 <mpeel>	remember our Object - that is inclusive of everyone, everywhere.
Nov 25 21:10:26 <mpeel>	same with the membership rules.
Nov 25 21:10:46 <mpeel>	yes, we're primarily here to serve the UK, but we shouldn't do that at the exclusion of others.
Nov 25 21:11:43 <AndrewRT>	mpeel, which sentence were you unhappy with?
Nov 25 21:11:51 <mpeel>	the second paragraph.
Nov 25 21:12:15 <AndrewRT>	"So far, most participants have been based on English-language projects, but in order to be the chapter for the whole of the UK, we want to ensure that we work with and for UK-based Wikimedians in all Wikimedia projects. As"
Nov 25 21:12:35 *	Warofdreams (n=chatzill@82-38-118-184.cable.ubr06.shef.blueyonder.co.uk) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 21:12:41 <KTC>	hello Warofdreams 
Nov 25 21:12:42 <AndrewRT>	HI WarOfDreams
Nov 25 21:12:56 *	ChanServ gives voice to Warofdreams
Nov 25 21:13:06 <Warofdreams>	hi all
Nov 25 21:13:14 <mpeel>	good evening Warofdreams
Nov 25 21:13:20 <KTC>	we'not not very far on the agenda, u didn't miss much :D
Nov 25 21:13:23 <Warofdreams>	have made it back earlier than I expected
Nov 25 21:13:37 <Warofdreams>	excellent.  sorry I missed some of it.
Nov 25 21:14:16 <AndrewRT>	we're on 4.2 - matters arising - non-english languages
Nov 25 21:14:28 <AndrewRT>	ust approving the post
Nov 25 21:14:34 <mpeel>	I have an issue with "So far, most participants have been based on English-language projects, but in order to be the chapter for the whole of the UK, we want to ensure that we work with and for UK-based Wikimedians in all Wikimedia projects." - it's rather too UK-specific.
Nov 25 21:14:39 <AndrewRT>	Just
Nov 25 21:14:40 <mpeel>	A suggested rewrite: "So far, most participants have been based on English-language projects, but  we want to ensure that we work with and for Wikimedians in all Wikimedia projects." ?
Nov 25 21:14:59 <mpeel>	although that might go too far the other way
Nov 25 21:15:01 <AndrewRT>	i suggest "...in all languages"
Nov 25 21:15:30 <mpeel>	that seems appropriate.
Nov 25 21:15:56 <AndrewRT>	WarOfDreams are you happy with that change?
Nov 25 21:16:16 <Warofdreams>	just to check - what exactly is the proposal now?
Nov 25 21:16:31 <Warofdreams>	I like the intention, but I want to check we mention the UK somewhere
Nov 25 21:16:41 <AndrewRT>	The whole text will be:
Nov 25 21:16:46 <KTC>	i feel it's too far the other way
Nov 25 21:17:07 <KTC>	without some explicit mention of UK, seeing we (will be) the UK chapter
Nov 25 21:17:12 <AndrewRT>	Wikimedians in the United Kingdom are working to set up a chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation, which will aid and encourage people to collect, develop and effectively disseminate knowledge. A board of five members has been elected, and a company has now been set up. Membership applications are now invited, and will be processed as soon as we have a bank account. The organisation needs the...
Nov 25 21:17:14 <AndrewRT>	...support and involvement of people like you.
Nov 25 21:17:16 <AndrewRT>	So far, most participants have been based on English-language projects, but we want to ensure that we work with and for Wikimedians in all languages. As [NAME OF PROJECT] is [reason why we are contacting them - either it is in a language native to the UK, or another language used by a significant number of UK residents], we are making contact with you.
Nov 25 21:17:18 <AndrewRT>	We need to know what a new UK chapter can do to assist your project, and how we can assist with it. We are also looking for people who can translate short pieces of text, such as the first paragraph of this message, to help publicise the activities of the chapter.
Nov 25 21:17:19 <AndrewRT>	Please do comment, make suggestions, and feel free to ask us any questions, whether here, on MetaWiki, or on the wikimedia-uk mailing list.
Nov 25 21:18:08 <AndrewRT>	It stiill mentions the UK twice and we may also refer to the UK in the "reason" comment
Nov 25 21:18:30 <AndrewRT>	e.g. "As Welsh is a language native to the United Kingdom..."
Nov 25 21:18:35 <KTC>	reading the whole thing in context, seems okay
Nov 25 21:18:37 <Warofdreams>	yes, that looks fine to me.
Nov 25 21:18:43 <mpeel>	BTW: I've just added a couple more links to the text on meta, btw, and interwiki-linked the rest.
Nov 25 21:18:53 <Warofdreams>	I notice that "We need to know what a new UK chapter can do to assist your project, and how we can assist with it."
Nov 25 21:18:58 <Warofdreams>	uses assist twice
Nov 25 21:19:07 <Warofdreams>	just a matter of a synonym
Nov 25 21:19:11 <AndrewRT>	ok would you like to change offline?
Nov 25 21:19:42 <Warofdreams>	yes, if everyone is happy with the latest proposal - KTC, how do you feel about it?
Nov 25 21:19:53 <Warofdreams>	sorry, I see you commented
Nov 25 21:20:14 <mpeel>	I'm happy with the text that AndrewRT posted (plus/minus a few synonyms)
Nov 25 21:20:50 <AndrewRT>	ok, subject to tweaking grammar offline, can we pass?
Nov 25 21:21:13 <KTC>	everyone happy ?
Nov 25 21:21:25 <Warofdreams>	i am.
Nov 25 21:21:58 <KTC>	right, what's next
Nov 25 21:22:03 <AndrewRT>	Thanks WarofDreams for your work on this
Nov 25 21:22:08 <KTC>	4.3 Newsletter
Nov 25 21:22:16 <KTC>	and thanks as always! :)
Nov 25 21:22:21 <Warofdreams>	no probs :)
Nov 25 21:22:23 <AndrewRT>	Thanks to everyone for sending that our
Nov 25 21:22:31 <mpeel>	The November issue has been distributed to both on-wiki and email subscribers.
Nov 25 21:22:43 <KTC>	and thanks for everyone who has read it :D
Nov 25 21:22:57 <AndrewRT>	_out_
Nov 25 21:23:14 <AndrewRT>	anything to discuss?
Nov 25 21:23:22 <AndrewRT>	besides noting our thanks
Nov 25 21:23:48 <Warofdreams>	I want to try to get a story in the Signpost on en.wp
Nov 25 21:23:55 <Warofdreams>	to try to get some more readers in
Nov 25 21:24:04 <AndrewRT>	excellent idea
Nov 25 21:24:17 <cfp>	indeed
Nov 25 21:24:24 <AndrewRT>	could the incorporation be a good enough hook?
Nov 25 21:24:32 <mpeel>	that would be good.
Nov 25 21:24:38 <Warofdreams>	I think so; that and the new newsletter
Nov 25 21:25:01 <mpeel>	there was a chapters activities report on the last Signpost issue.
Nov 25 21:25:13 <KTC>	write the story, get it published on the signpost, and see 
Nov 25 21:25:17 <KTC>	it can't hurt
Nov 25 21:25:23 <mpeel>	were you planning on writing something for that report, or a whole story?
Nov 25 21:25:38 <Warofdreams>	I was planning on writing something and seeing where it can go!
Nov 25 21:25:52 <Warofdreams>	If the report become a regular thing, people will want it to go in there
Nov 25 21:26:03 <Warofdreams>	otherwise, it's a goings-on type story
Nov 25 21:26:53 <mpeel>	OK. Did you want help writing it (e.g. on meta wiki)?
Nov 25 21:27:21 <Warofdreams>	I've no objections, but I was thinking of an uncontroversial paragraph or two
Nov 25 21:28:07 <AndrewRT>	do you need anything from the Board or shoudl we move on?
Nov 25 21:28:38 <Warofdreams>	provided everyone is ok for me to write it, please go ahead and move on
Nov 25 21:29:08 <KTC>	4.4 then. WER Ltd. Andrew?
Nov 25 21:29:10 <AndrewRT>	Thanks WarofDreams
Nov 25 21:29:11 <KTC>	it's from last week
Nov 25 21:29:12 <AndrewRT>	WER - I wrote to Alison asking her for the membership list (copied the Board) She hasn't replied
Nov 25 21:29:30 <AndrewRT>	I notice her phone number is on the webiste so I was planning to ring her this week
Nov 25 21:29:34 <AndrewRT>	if I hadn't heard
Nov 25 21:29:48 <AndrewRT>	figured phone might be more successful than email!
Nov 25 21:30:11 <AndrewRT>	thats all on that
Nov 25 21:30:42 <Warofdreams>	I believe that the membership list will be very short, so I wouldn't worry overly if it is difficult to get an answer
Nov 25 21:30:49 <AndrewRT>	i thought as much
Nov 25 21:31:13 <AndrewRT>	generally it woudl be good to have a constructive relationship with WER
Nov 25 21:31:22 <AndrewRT>	in case they can help in other ways
Nov 25 21:31:22 <KTC>	*nod*, right, let's move on
Nov 25 21:31:33 <KTC>	4.5 HMRC, Andrew again 
Nov 25 21:31:52 <AndrewRT>	ok
Nov 25 21:32:02 <AndrewRT>	I wrote to HMRC applying for charity status
Nov 25 21:32:09 <AndrewRT>	so we can reclaim Gift Aid
Nov 25 21:32:18 <AndrewRT>	snet Board a copy of the letter
Nov 25 21:32:28 <AndrewRT>	expect to hear back next week
Nov 25 21:32:33 <AndrewRT>	will kepp you informed!
Nov 25 21:32:53 <KTC>	than you
Nov 25 21:32:56 <KTC>	*thank you
Nov 25 21:32:59 <Warofdreams>	yes, thanks
Nov 25 21:33:07 <cfp>	let me know when you hear and i'll notify the coop
Nov 25 21:33:08 <mpeel>	is HMRC status and gift aid the same thing?
Nov 25 21:33:18 <AndrewRT>	in this case yes
Nov 25 21:33:27 <KTC>	4.6 cfp, any further on enquirying on direct debit?
Nov 25 21:33:36 <cfp>	yes indeed
Nov 25 21:33:38 <AndrewRT>	cfp - will do
Nov 25 21:34:20 <cfp>	so i phoned up the coop and the first guy i spoke to knew about it. he said you generally have to have banked with them for 1 to 2 years first
Nov 25 21:34:31 <AndrewRT>	oh
Nov 25 21:34:38 <cfp>	so they trust you. and there's a "few hundred pound set-up fee"
Nov 25 21:34:45 <cfp>	i phoned the hsbc to compare
Nov 25 21:35:05 <cfp>	i was on hold for literally two hours as i was shuffled round between different idiots who thought it was free
Nov 25 21:35:15 <cfp>	eventually i got told basically the same thing
Nov 25 21:35:21 <cfp>	£275 set-up
Nov 25 21:35:49 <AndrewRT>	presumably you can do standing orders for free from the word go?
Nov 25 21:36:24 <cfp>	they also listed various other options perhaps necessary on top e.g. an £1100 "purchase option" , £400 for "installation training" etc etc. someone from hsbc was supposed to be phoning me back with explanations of what that was
Nov 25 21:36:26 <cfp>	they didn't...
Nov 25 21:36:38 <KTC>	surpised lol
Nov 25 21:36:55 <AndrewRT>	i guess this rules out direct debits for the time being
Nov 25 21:37:12 <cfp>	so i think the conclusion of this is that getting direct debit is hard and potentially expensive anywhere, and that the coop's telephone staff are rather more withit than hsbc's
Nov 25 21:37:29 <Warofdreams>	so, we should look at drawing up a form to make it people easy to pay by standing order?
Nov 25 21:37:31 <AndrewRT>	well that's a good sign there!
Nov 25 21:37:31 <cfp>	but yes, people can pay directly into our bank account from the word go
Nov 25 21:37:40 <Warofdreams>	*easy for people to pay
Nov 25 21:37:56 <KTC>	well, considering 90% of hsbc telephone staff is oversea, i'm not totally surpised...
Nov 25 21:38:13 <AndrewRT>	yes that's a good idea WarofDreams but we have to wait until we have a bank account first
Nov 25 21:38:22 <AndrewRT>	suggest we revisit after the account is opened
Nov 25 21:38:24 <cfp>	there are also commercial services who will take direct debits on your behalf, so that's another option
Nov 25 21:38:37 <Warofdreams>	yes, absolutely (well, we can look at drawing a form up, but we can't release it until we have the account)
Nov 25 21:39:17 <AndrewRT>	mpeel given you did the original membership form would you mind takign this as an action
Nov 25 21:39:20 <AndrewRT>	?
Nov 25 21:39:20 <KTC>	same goes with what just been mention on #wikimedia-uk re. gift aid
Nov 25 21:39:24 <cfp>	don't forget that (and i quote wikipedia): "A standing order can only be set up and modified by the payer, and is for a set amount to be paid at a regular interval. The amount can be paid into any other bank account."
Nov 25 21:39:56 <Warofdreams>	Seddon points out that once we can accept gift aid, we should include an explanation and a tick box on the form in order to get members' agreement
Nov 25 21:40:00 <cfp>	so it's the payer that would set up a standing order, by e.g. putting in our sort code and ac num in their internet banking
Nov 25 21:40:13 <mpeel>	yes, I'm willing to take the action - but I would have thought that we'd want to wait until getting the bank account before creating the form.
Nov 25 21:40:31 <KTC>	let's just wait till we have a bank account
Nov 25 21:40:35 <AndrewRT>	sure
Nov 25 21:41:31 <KTC>	4.7 membership. it was advertised to the mailing list, and in the newsletter
Nov 25 21:41:41 <KTC>	come back to this in 10.
Nov 25 21:41:42 <AndrewRT>	ok I'll record that as an action once the bank account is opened
Nov 25 21:41:45 <cfp>	just as no one is so put off by coop's direct debit set up that they don't want us to go ahead with the coop
Nov 25 21:41:52 <cfp>	there was a missing "long as" in that sentence
Nov 25 21:42:09 <cfp>	received any applications yet?
Nov 25 21:42:11 <AndrewRT>	cfp - no i dont think so
Nov 25 21:42:25 <AndrewRT>	cfp - given HSBC was just the same
Nov 25 21:42:31 <AndrewRT>	mpeel?
Nov 25 21:42:35 <mpeel>	yes, one.
Nov 25 21:42:41 <AndrewRT>	wahey!
Nov 25 21:42:42 <KTC>	come back to it in the right section!
Nov 25 21:42:45 <Warofdreams>	yes, it doesn't look as though we'll get a significantly better deal
Nov 25 21:42:48 <KTC>	but weee! :)
Nov 25 21:42:49 <mpeel>	discuss later?
Nov 25 21:42:59 <KTC>	4.8 wikimeet
Nov 25 21:43:00 <Warofdreams>	:D
Nov 25 21:43:10 <KTC>	was someone asked to write a sum up?
Nov 25 21:43:30 <mpeel>	apologies: I forgot about this action until I read the minutes at the begining of this meeting.
Nov 25 21:43:33 <AndrewRT>	that was for the newsletter?
Nov 25 21:43:37 <KTC>	yeah
Nov 25 21:43:44 <cfp>	ahh a little late then.
Nov 25 21:43:54 <mpeel>	it could always go in the next newsletter, if we want it.
Nov 25 21:43:57 <KTC>	oh well, maybe we can ask a regular attendee to write one up for furture meet ?
Nov 25 21:44:07 <KTC>	if he or she is willing
Nov 25 21:44:08 <Warofdreams>	there will have been another meet-up by the next newsletter
Nov 25 21:44:12 <AndrewRT>	let's wait until then, see what else we have
Nov 25 21:44:32 <Warofdreams>	but if anyone wants to write a regular summary, it'd be good
Nov 25 21:44:47 <Warofdreams>	not essential, though
Nov 25 21:44:49 <mpeel>	please put the action on me again in this meeting's minutes: I'll look for a regular attendee to write something.
Nov 25 21:44:57 <AndrewRT>	ok done
Nov 25 21:45:11 <Warofdreams>	Andrew: just to check, are you minuting this meeting?
Nov 25 21:45:29 <AndrewRT>	yes sorry - forgot to mention
Nov 25 21:45:48 <Warofdreams>	that's great
Nov 25 21:46:03 <Warofdreams>	I'm sure you'll do a better job than me, having been here for the whole thing :)
Nov 25 21:46:32 <KTC>	5. resolutions then
Nov 25 21:46:36 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-25/Resolutions
Nov 25 21:46:42 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0 (i think)
Nov 25 21:46:47 <AndrewRT>	well, i though it would be easier than having to trawl through the IRC log!
Nov 25 21:46:54 <KTC>	yes. #Resolution_to_delegate_powers
Nov 25 21:47:15 <AndrewRT>	This is necessary to get the back account opened
Nov 25 21:47:25 <AndrewRT>	and presumably covers cheque signing too
Nov 25 21:47:42 <cfp>	the text is basically copied from what the account opening form said we needed
Nov 25 21:48:33 <cfp>	here's the relevant bit of the charity's act 1991 http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts1993/ukpga_19930010_en_11#pt9-pb6-l1g82
Nov 25 21:48:45 <cfp>	1993 even
Nov 25 21:48:46 <AndrewRT>	given the reaction to what seemed like a blanked authority, I added some explanatory words
Nov 25 21:48:55 <AndrewRT>	are you happy with the changes I made cfp?
Nov 25 21:49:06 <AndrewRT>	"blanket authority"
Nov 25 21:49:41 <cfp>	it was a bit dangerously like blanket authority yes. i did think about adding a similar proviso myself
Nov 25 21:49:54 <AndrewRT>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_UK_v2.0%2FBoard_meetings%2F2008-11-25%2FResolutions&diff=1292095&oldid=1290894
Nov 25 21:49:55 <cfp>	it's just the requirement that it be a "general authority" which threw me a little
Nov 25 21:50:16 <cfp>	since if you add restrictions is it still a "general authority"
Nov 25 21:50:18 <AndrewRT>	I think there are two things here
Nov 25 21:50:25 <AndrewRT>	first - how do we word the resolution
Nov 25 21:50:35 <AndrewRT>	and second - how do we authorise expenditure
Nov 25 21:51:02 <AndrewRT>	For the second I think we should say the type of expenditure should always be authorised by the Board
Nov 25 21:51:15 *	Seddon has quit (Client Quit)
Nov 25 21:51:26 <AndrewRT>	and the specific spend signed off using the delegated authority we established for expenses
Nov 25 21:52:09 <AndrewRT>	Is that generally ok?
Nov 25 21:52:15 <Warofdreams>	I think that makes sense for the moment.
Nov 25 21:52:42 <AndrewRT>	obviously we can revisit at any future Board meeting
Nov 25 21:53:18 <Warofdreams>	Yes, I don't think we'd need to revisit it any time soon, but once we are larger and have considerable funds, we might want to change this.
Nov 25 21:53:23 *	mib_f9eg4p (i=83fb8d75@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c0164ea674b4a569) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 21:54:29 *	mib_f9eg4p has quit (Client Quit)
Nov 25 21:54:34 *	Seddon (i=83fb8d75@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-43f644636564e3ff) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 21:54:40 <Warofdreams>	for instance, to give directors budgets for particular projects
Nov 25 21:55:12 <AndrewRT>	yes i agree WarofDreams
Nov 25 21:55:19 <AndrewRT>	perhaps even for Wikimania 2010 Bid
Nov 25 21:55:37 <Warofdreams>	good point.
Nov 25 21:56:15 <cfp>	sorry i've been catching up on the discussion on the talk page
Nov 25 21:56:23 <AndrewRT>	No problem me too
Nov 25 21:56:24 <mpeel>	isn't the form of the resolution something that should be checked with the co-op prior to submitting the application?
Nov 25 21:56:44 <AndrewRT>	no harm in that i suppose
Nov 25 21:56:48 <AndrewRT>	cfp?
Nov 25 21:56:59 <mpeel>	obviously a restricted one would be best from our point of view, but if they need a general one then we don't have a choice in the matter.
Nov 25 21:57:07 <cfp>	well the form's fairly clear in what it wants. but yeah i could phone up, is everyone available for an egm tomorrow?
Nov 25 21:57:25 <cfp>	another board meeting anyway
Nov 25 21:57:39 <KTC>	we can agree to a written resolution by email if need be
Nov 25 21:57:52 <AndrewRT>	could you just email it around?
Nov 25 21:57:58 <AndrewRT>	if they dont like it?
Nov 25 21:58:45 <cfp>	i suggest we just go with TD's suggestion
Nov 25 21:58:59 <AndrewRT>	which is?
Nov 25 21:59:03 <cfp>	"Pursuant to Section 82 of the Charities Act 1993, the Board of Directors confers upon X and Y, acting together, a general authority to execute in the name and on behalf of the charity assurances or other deeds or instruments for giving effect to transactions to which the charity is a party and have been approved by the Board or its delegate(s)."
Nov 25 21:59:48 <AndrewRT>	the difference to the current text i presume is deleting "in connection with the opening and operation of the bank account. "
Nov 25 21:59:55 <cfp>	yeah
Nov 25 22:00:14 <AndrewRT>	oh and "and have been approved by the Board or its delegate(s)."
Nov 25 22:00:24 <cfp>	that'd be a fine change too, delete that, then add in "and have been approved ..."
Nov 25 22:00:54 <AndrewRT>	ok im fine with that
Nov 25 22:00:59 <cfp>	we'd probably need a second resolution explicitly authorising the opening of a "Community Directplus" account with the "cooperative bank"
Nov 25 22:01:03 <cfp>	ok i'll make that change
Nov 25 22:01:05 <Warofdreams>	I'm happy with that
Nov 25 22:01:36 <KTC>	cfp, we already resolved to open a bank account with the coop
Nov 25 22:01:45 <KTC>	last week
Nov 25 22:02:01 <AndrewRT>	CFP - do you still need to run it by coop?
Nov 25 22:02:18 <cfp>	i'll phone them up before i send it off
Nov 25 22:02:19 <mpeel>	erm... who's X and Y? ;-) Changing that to "Tom Holden and Andrew Turvey" might help...
Nov 25 22:02:35 <cfp>	someone beat me to making hte change
Nov 25 22:02:47 <cfp>	to we want TD's wording, or would we prefer the original general authority one
Nov 25 22:02:57 <AndrewRT>	changed
Nov 25 22:03:06 <AndrewRT>	sorry that was me!
Nov 25 22:03:19 <AndrewRT>	i'm happy with TD's wording
Nov 25 22:03:25 <cfp>	ok.
Nov 25 22:03:38 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-25/Resolutions&oldid=1292816
Nov 25 22:03:44 <KTC>	yes or no as a resolution
Nov 25 22:03:45 <KTC>	?
Nov 25 22:03:48 <AndrewRT>	yes
Nov 25 22:03:52 <cfp>	so shall we vote on this resolution now? we can always amend it if needed
Nov 25 22:03:53 <cfp>	yes
Nov 25 22:04:25 <KTC>	hold on
Nov 25 22:04:39 <KTC>	<Tango42> In the interests of completeness, I'll repeat what I said on the talk page: The Act also allows for the authority to be conferred in some way other than to named individuals - for example, you may want to consider "confers upon any two directors acting together" or "confers upon the Treasurer and the Secretary acting together" or anything like that (the wording is mine, but I'm reasonably...
Nov 25 22:04:39 <KTC>	<Tango42> ...sure that's what the Act is talking about). How exactly you would fill out of the bank's form for that, I don't know, but they would probably accept just the names on the form as long as the supporting documentation makes it clear that those names correspond with the people described in the resolution. (Incidentally, it seems odd for the Chair not to be one of the people, but maybe that's...
Nov 25 22:04:39 <KTC>	<Tango42> ...just me.)
Nov 25 22:04:45 <cfp>	yes i saw that.
Nov 25 22:05:06 <KTC>	we can do named position, or two of directors ....
Nov 25 22:05:28 <AndrewRT>	i suggest for now, TH, Treasurer and AT CoSec
Nov 25 22:05:52 <KTC>	as named person, or named position?
Nov 25 22:05:53 <AndrewRT>	so the resolution falls away if they no longer hold teh positions
Nov 25 22:06:07 <AndrewRT>	alternatively, say "Treasurer and Company Secretary"
Nov 25 22:06:17 <AndrewRT>	so the authority follws tehe position
Nov 25 22:06:46 <mpeel>	I'd prefer either named, or two directors.
Nov 25 22:06:57 <Warofdreams>	is there any reason not to have the authority follow the position?
Nov 25 22:06:59 <mpeel>	depending on whether we want the resolution to be short- or long-term.
Nov 25 22:07:06 <Warofdreams>	obviously, we can change this as and when needed
Nov 25 22:07:14 <mpeel>	future Chairs might want to be one of the authorities.
Nov 25 22:07:19 <KTC>	i like mpeel suggestion
Nov 25 22:07:20 <mpeel>	as Tango has pointed out.
Nov 25 22:07:35 <AndrewRT>	in practice you need to notify the bank every time yu change the signatories anyway
Nov 25 22:07:51 <Warofdreams>	true.
Nov 25 22:07:52 <KTC>	that signatories is different to what we are approving
Nov 25 22:08:12 <KTC>	this resolution let X & Y & ... to sign things in the name of the charity
Nov 25 22:08:20 <AndrewRT>	i''m not sure it is different
Nov 25 22:08:21 <KTC>	once the board agree to it
Nov 25 22:08:39 <AndrewRT>	this is teh notice to the bank saying you can act on a notice signed by these people
Nov 25 22:08:56 <AndrewRT>	either a cheque, a letter, a contract etc
Nov 25 22:09:12 <mpeel>	if it's not different, then why are the two in two different parts of the form?
Nov 25 22:09:16 <KTC>	yes, but the resolution as it stand also allow the person to sign other thing that's agreed by the board
Nov 25 22:09:17 <AndrewRT>	presumably when you change signatories you have to go through a similar process
Nov 25 22:09:28 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - yes i suppose that's true
Nov 25 22:10:11 <cfp>	yeah section 1 is just stating that you have the authority to open the account and you agree to the T&C. the people signing section 1 didn't have to be the same people signing section 9
Nov 25 22:10:13 <AndrewRT>	can we move to a proposal
Nov 25 22:10:33 <Warofdreams>	please do.
Nov 25 22:11:02 <AndrewRT>	we have a current text here
Nov 25 22:11:09 <AndrewRT>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-25/Resolutions
Nov 25 22:11:19 <AndrewRT>	does anyone wnat to suggest an amendment?
Nov 25 22:12:06 <cfp>	we have 2 under discussion, "Treasurer and Secretary" or "any two directors"
Nov 25 22:12:35 <KTC>	i propose we go with a general long term resolution to let two directors acting together to act ... on someting that's agreed by the board
Nov 25 22:12:53 <AndrewRT>	So options (1) AT & TH (2) Tres & CoSec (3) Any two directors
Nov 25 22:12:55 <mpeel>	I think that the text is fine as it is - I dislike the idea of making a long-term resolution without having more time to think it through.
Nov 25 22:13:29 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - you're going for option (1) then?
Nov 25 22:13:35 <mpeel>	yes, option 1.
Nov 25 22:14:03 <KTC>	as currently worded only, i'll agree to 1. i.e. named person with current position
Nov 25 22:14:14 <KTC>	i'll obviously agree to 3 as well
Nov 25 22:14:20 <Warofdreams>	I'm happy with option 1.
Nov 25 22:14:29 <AndrewRT>	option 1 it is then!
Nov 25 22:14:34 <AndrewRT>	I'll minute that
Nov 25 22:14:47 <cfp>	we can always change later / revoke this resolution
Nov 25 22:14:53 <AndrewRT>	do we still want cfp to run it by the coop?
Nov 25 22:14:56 <cfp>	should we formally vote on it:
Nov 25 22:15:03 <AndrewRT>	cfp: yes
Nov 25 22:15:04 <cfp>	i will do, but we can vote now anyway
Nov 25 22:15:17 <cfp>	if they're ok with it we don't need to change anything
Nov 25 22:15:19 <AndrewRT>	i vote yes
Nov 25 22:15:22 <KTC>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-25/Resolutions&oldid=1292816
Nov 25 22:15:23 <Warofdreams>	yes
Nov 25 22:15:24 <cfp>	i vote yes
Nov 25 22:15:28 <KTC>	yes :)
Nov 25 22:15:33 <AndrewRT>	done
Nov 25 22:16:20 <cfp>	cool.
Nov 25 22:16:56 <KTC>	6. # Public phone contact
Nov 25 22:17:00 <mpeel>	not that my vote matters, but I'll add another "yes" to the above.
Nov 25 22:17:02 <cfp>	one query: i've only got to send the coop the resolution, but it'd probably make sense to send them the full minutes for both this meeting and the last one. it also might be sensible if they were signed.
Nov 25 22:17:24 <cfp>	AndrewRT could you possibly fax signed copies to me / e-mail scanned in signed copies?
Nov 25 22:17:26 <AndrewRT>	cfp - i wouldn't
Nov 25 22:17:36 <AndrewRT>	it'll only get them asking questions
Nov 25 22:17:48 <AndrewRT>	i suggest we only send them the resolution they ask for
Nov 25 22:17:58 <AndrewRT>	I can tart it up and get it signed if you want
Nov 25 22:18:08 <AndrewRT>	and emailed over
Nov 25 22:18:10 <cfp>	hmm ok. well we need the other as well since the former gives us the authority to open the bank account
Nov 25 22:18:19 <cfp>	so we do need to send them both
Nov 25 22:18:22 <AndrewRT>	do they want a written copy of that?
Nov 25 22:18:43 <cfp>	it's only the two resolutions together which satisfy what they're after
Nov 25 22:19:02 <AndrewRT>	ok - I'll get that put together, signed and emailed over
Nov 25 22:19:04 <mpeel>	who needs to sign the copies of the resolution? just the secretary?
Nov 25 22:19:16 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - normally yes
Nov 25 22:19:24 <cfp>	just the secretary should be fine. they don't even ask for a signature, it's just a precaution
Nov 25 22:19:28 <cfp>	thanks AndrewRT
Nov 25 22:19:34 <AndrewRT>	np!
Nov 25 22:19:37 <mpeel>	ok, just wanted to clarify that.
Nov 25 22:19:58 <KTC>	right. 6......
Nov 25 22:20:12 <AndrewRT>	I think 6 has already been decided
Nov 25 22:20:14 <AndrewRT>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-11-10#Requests_for_attendance_at_events
Nov 25 22:20:34 <mpeel>	that was a different issue.
Nov 25 22:20:39 <AndrewRT>	At the moment, the board's main priority is forming the organisation. Requests for attendance at events will be politely declined, unless a board member can conveniently attend. MC to respond to request. Any board member who intends to attend an event to contact MC as soon as possible.
Nov 25 22:20:43 <KTC>	public phone contact number
Nov 25 22:20:50 <AndrewRT>	yes slightly different you're right
Nov 25 22:20:50 <KTC>	andrew, which agenda are you looking at ?
Nov 25 22:20:59 <cfp>	he's quoting what we agreed before
Nov 25 22:21:10 <cfp>	as i've said before i'm happy for my phone number to be public
Nov 25 22:21:40 <AndrewRT>	KTC - 6 Public Phone contact
Nov 25 22:21:41 <cfp>	but i'm perhaps not the ideal candidate for dealing with the press, as i'm slightly less clued up on wiki affairs than the rest of you
Nov 25 22:21:49 <mpeel>	I previously offered to set up a pay-as-you-go phone for this, if wanted.
Nov 25 22:21:58 <AndrewRT>	ok, lets treat this as separate then
Nov 25 22:22:06 <cfp>	that seems like overkill
Nov 25 22:22:14 <AndrewRT>	I'm happy to do it if peopel want me to
Nov 25 22:22:14 <Warofdreams>	"Once the company has been set up, someone will be needed to answer phone enquiries. Could use a dedicate mobile phone; will need to make number public. MP is willing to do this initially; it would be possible to use trusted volunteers who are not board members."
Nov 25 22:22:25 <Warofdreams>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia_UK_v2.0/Board_meetings/2008-10-21#External_Communication item 5
Nov 25 22:22:40 <cfp>	since unless you actually have the second phone with and on you most of the time you may as well have just not bothered
Nov 25 22:23:06 <mpeel>	I offered to do that because at the time no-one seemed to want to make their phone number available.
Nov 25 22:23:16 <KTC>	AndrewRT, this item is from david gerard email question
Nov 25 22:23:28 <AndrewRT>	yes i thought so
Nov 25 22:23:35 <AndrewRT>	i guess it needs a response
Nov 25 22:23:54 <AndrewRT>	shall we go round and see who is prepared to offer their own number?
Nov 25 22:24:05 <AndrewRT>	or take a WMUK pay as you go phone
Nov 25 22:24:10 <Warofdreams>	a dedicated mobile could be redirected as desired, but I seem to remember that possibility wasn't popular when we discussed this before
Nov 25 22:25:16 <mpeel>	Personally, I wouldn't want my main phone number to be given out as a general contact - but would be happy to have a second phone number for that.
Nov 25 22:25:37 <mpeel>	Tango42: A dedicated mobile phone would also have dedicated voicemail - that's the important bit
Nov 25 22:26:10 <AndrewRT>	I'm the reverse of mpeel - would be happy for my number to be given out but would find a second mobile a hassle
Nov 25 22:26:13 <Warofdreams>	I will not be available to take calls during working hours
Nov 25 22:26:24 <Warofdreams>	so am not best placed to be a general contact
Nov 25 22:26:40 <KTC>	Warofdreams, the current general contact have his phone off during work
Nov 25 22:27:10 <Warofdreams>	I didn't know that, but if someone is often available to answer calls during weekday daytimes, that would be better
Nov 25 22:27:33 <Warofdreams>	as I suspect we will get most media or business queries then
Nov 25 22:27:35 <AndrewRT>	i can answer calls most of the time work times
Nov 25 22:27:45 <AndrewRT>	not always, can normally return calls fairly quickly
Nov 25 22:27:53 <cfp>	i can answer calls most of the time i'm awake, which perhaps rules out mornings..
Nov 25 22:28:04 <KTC>	sounds like me cfp :D
Nov 25 22:28:30 <mpeel>	I can generally answer calls whenever I'm not at an Observatory, which is all but two to three days a week.
Nov 25 22:29:02 <mpeel>	but then, I'm probably not the best person to deal with the press, along a similar vein to what cfp said above.
Nov 25 22:29:20 <cfp>	why don't we make multiple numbers available, that way we all share the annoyance, and the chances of one us being available is maximised
Nov 25 22:30:17 *	AndrewRT_ (n=chatzill@87.113.81.136.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
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Nov 25 22:30:47 <KTC>	hello?
Nov 25 22:31:00 <cfp>	i think he's dc'd
Nov 25 22:31:11 *	AndrewRT_ (n=chatzill@87.113.81.136.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Nov 25 22:31:55 *	AndrewRT has quit (Nick collision from services.)
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Nov 25 22:32:20 <KTC>	um
Nov 25 22:32:53 *	AndrewRT (n=chatzill@87.113.81.136.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
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Nov 25 22:32:58 <AndrewRT>	sorry about that
Nov 25 22:33:03 <mpeel>	Seddon: given the nature of being in first year uni, im available quite a bit in the day so i dont mind offering my services
Nov 25 22:33:12 <AndrewRT>	back in the room!
Nov 25 22:33:17 <cfp>	it'd be better if it was someone on the board
Nov 25 22:33:29 <cfp>	<+cfp> why don't we make multiple numbers available, that way we all share the annoyance, and the chances of one us being available is maximised
Nov 25 22:33:35 <mpeel>	cfp: I agree.
Nov 25 22:33:42 <KTC>	okay
Nov 25 22:33:46 <cfp>	to the former or the latter?
Nov 25 22:33:47 <KTC>	let's take this one at a time
Nov 25 22:33:50 <mpeel>	former
Nov 25 22:34:04 <KTC>	do we want 1, 2, or more phone number available publicly ?
Nov 25 22:34:22 <AndrewRT>	i agree with havign two numbers available
Nov 25 22:34:23 <mpeel>	one main point of contact would probably be best, possibly with others as secondary contacts.
Nov 25 22:34:56 <KTC>	bearing in mind once it's out there in some list / phonebook, it'll prob be there forever
Nov 25 22:35:19 <Warofdreams>	if we had a dedicated PAYG phone, we could redirect it as needed, to share the burden
Nov 25 22:35:58 <AndrewRT>	Could we have one PAYG phone which mpeel keeps and redirects when he cant answer?
Nov 25 22:36:28 <KTC>	that would prob be hand it over to whoever at the agm ?
Nov 25 22:36:36 <Warofdreams>	if he wanted, he could redirect it to his own phone when he expects to be able to answer
Nov 25 22:36:42 <Warofdreams>	to save carrying two around
Nov 25 22:36:57 <cfp>	ok this all sounds sensible. i wasn't aware redirection was so easy
Nov 25 22:37:10 <cfp>	and you said you have a spare pay as you go sim mpeel
Nov 25 22:37:18 <mpeel>	yup
Nov 25 22:37:24 <AndrewRT>	me neither - is it?
Nov 25 22:37:26 <cfp>	so this isn't going to cost the charity anything initially at least.
Nov 25 22:37:45 <Warofdreams>	yes, it really is this easy!
Nov 25 22:37:46 <AndrewRT>	there'll be a small cost for returning calls
Nov 25 22:37:47 <cfp>	ok so is everyone happy with the current proposal
Nov 25 22:37:54 <KTC>	*nod*
Nov 25 22:38:03 <Warofdreams>	yes.
Nov 25 22:38:08 <mpeel>	could the "current proposal" be clearly stated, please?
Nov 25 22:38:10 <AndrewRT>	coudl someone summarise for teh mintes?
Nov 25 22:38:17 <mpeel>	I keep loosing track of which one's current. :(
Nov 25 22:38:21 <KTC>	<AndrewRT> Could we have one PAYG phone which mpeel keeps and redirects when he cant answer
Nov 25 22:38:39 <mpeel>	OK
Nov 25 22:38:41 <Warofdreams>	I've been involved in a similar set-up before, so I'd like to summarise the (fairly minor) problems we encountered
Nov 25 22:38:50 <cfp>	MPeel will lend the service of his PAYG phone and sim card to the charity
Nov 25 22:39:07 <Warofdreams>	firstly, just occasionally, texts weren't forwarded, for some odd reason.  not a serious issue for us.
Nov 25 22:39:58 <AndrewRT>	"MP agreed to lend the company one PAYG phone which he would keep and whose number would be published as the Wiki UK Ltd contact number and he would redirect it to other Board members where necessary."
Nov 25 22:40:02 <Warofdreams>	secondly, whoever has the PAYG phone and controls the forwarding needs to be relied upon not to forward to someone and then vanish for a week or two
Nov 25 22:40:06 <cfp>	outgoing calls will be kept to a minimum, but will be covered by the charity pending receipt of a list of calls
Nov 25 22:40:10 <Warofdreams>	shouldn't be a likely problem
Nov 25 22:40:35 <mpeel>	list of calls: bear in mind that this is pay as you go, not a contract phone.
Nov 25 22:40:49 <mpeel>	so the list would have to be hand-written.
Nov 25 22:41:00 <AndrewRT>	or put through the receipt for the top ups
Nov 25 22:41:05 <Warofdreams>	finally, if the message is forwarded and the call goes to voicemail, the caller will hear the message of whoever's phone it is forwarded to
Nov 25 22:41:06 <cfp>	but it has call history? i know it's a pain but it's probably sensible to keep a log
Nov 25 22:41:28 <cfp>	yeah put through a receipt for the top ups, but it'd still be good to have a call log
Nov 25 22:41:30 <AndrewRT>	WOD: good points thanks for raising these
Nov 25 22:41:32 <mpeel>	OK
Nov 25 22:41:40 <mpeel>	I'd expect that most of the time the phone won't be redirecting.
Nov 25 22:41:43 <KTC>	another point
Nov 25 22:41:46 <cfp>	if that's not too arsey.
Nov 25 22:42:00 <KTC>	mpeel, make sure u let whoever u forwarding it to knw :D
Nov 25 22:42:06 <mpeel>	of course. :)
Nov 25 22:43:07 <KTC>	right, let's move on
Nov 25 22:43:12 <KTC>	or we'll be here all night
Nov 25 22:43:15 <KTC>	7. Wikimediauk-l
Nov 25 22:43:34 <mpeel>	I asked for this to be added.
Nov 25 22:43:41 <AndrewRT>	?
Nov 25 22:43:51 <mpeel>	Basically, I'm unconvinced that messages from non-subscribers that should go to the list are actually getting through.
Nov 25 22:44:08 <mpeel>	e.g. the email I forwarded to the list earlier today is somewhere in the message queue.
Nov 25 22:44:17 <mpeel>	The list is currently moderated by J. Forrester and D. Gerard
Nov 25 22:44:19 <AndrewRT>	My experience is if you try to send a message and you're not on the list it bounces
Nov 25 22:44:25 <AndrewRT>	automatically
Nov 25 22:44:28 <mpeel>	it should go into a queue for moderator approval.
Nov 25 22:44:34 <mpeel>	that's the standard setting for mailman lists
Nov 25 22:45:08 <mpeel>	I'd like to suggest that we request that someone from the current board is added to the moderator list - e.g. Warofdreams (as communications director)
Nov 25 22:45:18 <cfp>	i'd support that
Nov 25 22:45:19 <Warofdreams>	I am happy to do this.
Nov 25 22:45:20 <AndrewRT>	have you approached JF and/or DG about this?
Nov 25 22:45:23 <mpeel>	no
Nov 25 22:45:44 <AndrewRT>	i second wod as extra moderator
Nov 25 22:45:57 <AndrewRT>	can he follow this up?
Nov 25 22:46:45 <Warofdreams>	will do.
Nov 25 22:46:54 <Warofdreams>	please action me.
Nov 25 22:47:05 <AndrewRT>	done
Nov 25 22:47:24 <AndrewRT>	mpeel does that deal with your point?
Nov 25 22:47:36 <mpeel>	yup
Nov 25 22:47:39 <mpeel>	thanks
Nov 25 22:47:44 <KTC>	Treasurer's Report
Nov 25 22:48:17 <AndrewRT>	cfp?
Nov 25 22:48:17 <cfp>	nothing additional to report
Nov 25 22:48:23 <cfp>	oooh actually one thing:
Nov 25 22:48:49 <cfp>	final expenses for the meeting were £130.10.
Nov 25 22:49:18 <AndrewRT>	thanks for letting us know
Nov 25 22:49:30 <cfp>	is anyone going to claim for stamps for posting me things? you're welcome too, but also, you're welcome to spair us all the hassle
Nov 25 22:49:33 <AndrewRT>	fairly cheap meeting all in all
Nov 25 22:49:51 <AndrewRT>	cfp - i may do
Nov 25 22:50:04 <cfp>	ok no worries, there were quite a few stamps on what you sent me
Nov 25 22:50:18 <KTC>	can i charge for internet for the irc meetings? (yes, i'm kidding! :D)
Nov 25 22:50:24 <AndrewRT>	yes! it was over 100g in teh end!
Nov 25 22:50:37 <AndrewRT>	KTC: I should think so
Nov 25 22:50:50 <KTC>	Secretary's Report
Nov 25 22:50:58 <AndrewRT>	nothing from me to report
Nov 25 22:51:22 <KTC>	Membership Report
Nov 25 22:51:32 <cfp>	any applications received?
Nov 25 22:51:36 <mpeel>	Membership application was made available, and applications were invited.
Nov 25 22:51:40 <mpeel>	One has been received so far.
Nov 25 22:51:44 <cfp>	exciting.
Nov 25 22:52:00 <AndrewRT>	Could we put on the agenda for the next meeting
Nov 25 22:52:04 <cfp>	i'll send you the paying in book as soon as i get it
Nov 25 22:52:08 <mpeel>	No enclosed cheque, but the promise to send one once we have a bank account.
Nov 25 22:52:11 <AndrewRT>	how we intend to process membership applications
Nov 25 22:52:34 <AndrewRT>	i.e. will they be brought to the board one by one, in a batch, etc etc
Nov 25 22:52:35 <cfp>	sure. we'll be in a better place to discuss it then
Nov 25 22:52:44 <AndrewRT>	thanks
Nov 25 22:52:56 <mpeel>	I was planning on using this section to raise membership applications at each meeting.
Nov 25 22:53:10 <cfp>	hopefully we can just get a standing resolution to accept all memberships of people who've completed the form and paid the money
Nov 25 22:53:56 <AndrewRT>	ok, I'll raise an alternative approach on the list
Nov 25 22:54:01 <AndrewRT>	if that's ok
Nov 25 22:54:04 <mpeel>	that would be fine, although it would be good to have a plan for discussing not-perfect applications.
Nov 25 22:54:05 <mpeel>	ok
Nov 25 22:54:14 <mpeel>	(first was in response to cfp, to clarify)
Nov 25 22:54:38 <cfp>	ok well lets defer this all to next week after the list has commented on AndrewRT's suggestion
Nov 25 22:54:51 <AndrewRT>	hehe look forward to it!
Nov 25 22:55:01 <mpeel>	ok
Nov 25 22:55:10 <mpeel>	still with membership - there is the issue of methods of paying.
Nov 25 22:55:19 <AndrewRT>	ok
Nov 25 22:55:21 <cfp>	direct bank transfer will be available
Nov 25 22:55:23 <mpeel>	people on the list were wanting to be able to pay by paypal.
Nov 25 22:55:29 <cfp>	i'd expect that to be the most used one
Nov 25 22:55:43 <AndrewRT>	did someone look into fees etc?
Nov 25 22:55:53 <mpeel>	they pointed out that we don't actually need a bank acount to be able to receive paypal payments, only to withdraw them out of paypal.
Nov 25 22:56:16 <cfp>	well i think if we were accepting paypal we'd have to pass the fees on to donators
Nov 25 22:56:21 <mpeel>	fees: it would be the standard fees, I expect. We may want to calculate them, and ask for the senders to pay for them.
Nov 25 22:56:22 <cfp>	that would be the only fair way
Nov 25 22:56:43 <mpeel>	unfortunately paypal doesn't make that trivial, I don't think...
Nov 25 22:57:05 <mpeel>	you have to calculate how much the fees would be on the amount + the fees, and ask for that.
Nov 25 22:57:07 <cfp>	it would be silly to open a paypal account prior to having the bank account, possible or otherwise
Nov 25 22:57:23 <cfp>	mpeel: yeah, that's what i presumed, it wouldn't be too hard.
Nov 25 22:57:24 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - could you take an action to investigate the costs and practicalities of setting up a paypal account?
Nov 25 22:57:39 <mpeel>	cfp: true, basic maths. So long as they don't keep changing it.
Nov 25 22:57:43 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: sure.
Nov 25 22:58:07 <cfp>	plus the account ought to be opened jointly by andrew and i if possible.
Nov 25 22:58:07 <KTC>	anything else ?
Nov 25 22:58:13 <mpeel>	Register of Members: AndrewRT, could an action be put on you to send me this, please?
Nov 25 22:58:14 <AndrewRT>	ok i'll minute that
Nov 25 22:58:26 <AndrewRT>	mpeel: sure
Nov 25 22:58:42 <mpeel>	Next question: do we want to have an online list of members?
Nov 25 22:58:49 <cfp>	NO!
Nov 25 22:58:55 <AndrewRT>	I would think no as well
Nov 25 22:59:00 <Warofdreams>	I agree.
Nov 25 22:59:01 <cfp>	or at least not a public one...
Nov 25 22:59:13 <AndrewRT>	Did you think we should?
Nov 25 22:59:16 <mpeel>	That was my feeling too, but I wanted to get that straight.
Nov 25 22:59:34 <cfp>	sharing a doc on google docs between those who need to see it might be sensible, but nothing beyond that
Nov 25 22:59:34 <mpeel>	At some point we need to remove the list of potential applicants from the WMUK2 page...
Nov 25 23:00:12 <AndrewRT>	are you going to contact each of them about signing up?
Nov 25 23:00:33 <mpeel>	I have already sent a message around to them all saying that we're now inviting membership applications.
Nov 25 23:00:44 <mpeel>	I'll send another around once we're accepting them.
Nov 25 23:00:49 <AndrewRT>	in that case I suggest we can take them down now
Nov 25 23:01:09 <AndrewRT>	but i dont think this needs to be a Board decision
Nov 25 23:01:23 <AndrewRT>	btw u've been updating teh wiki to bring it up to date
Nov 25 23:01:48 <KTC>	ok? Timetable Review
Nov 25 23:01:49 <mpeel>	So long as everyone on the board's happy with doing that, then I'm fine with removing them.
Nov 25 23:02:03 <AndrewRT>	thanks mpeel
Nov 25 23:02:03 <Warofdreams>	I've been recategorising stuff on meta, to tidy things up, too
Nov 25 23:02:19 <AndrewRT>	Timetable - I've updated to show we've sent off teh HMRC application
Nov 25 23:02:21 <KTC>	i saw that Warofdreams, my watchlist was fun :D
Nov 25 23:02:28 <Warofdreams>	:)
Nov 25 23:02:42 <mpeel>	bear in mind that we probably want to move to our own wiki at some point in the future...
Nov 25 23:02:55 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - yes i agree
Nov 25 23:03:02 <cfp>	no other major progress so lets leave the rest of the timetable for this week.
Nov 25 23:03:09 <AndrewRT>	when can we get control of wikimedia.org.uk?
Nov 25 23:03:27 <Warofdreams>	yes, if we have things well organised and up-to-date on meta, that will help with exporting it
Nov 25 23:03:28 <cfp>	when anyone asks JamesF forcefully enough i guess
Nov 25 23:03:30 <mpeel>	once we're recognized by the Foundation formally, I think.
Nov 25 23:03:42 <cfp>	oh ok.
Nov 25 23:03:48 <AndrewRT>	ok
Nov 25 23:03:58 <mpeel>	then we'll have approval to use the trademark, prior to signing the formal contract...
Nov 25 23:03:59 <AndrewRT>	i agree with cfp - leave tt as is for now
Nov 25 23:04:05 <cfp>	AOCB?
Nov 25 23:04:18 <cfp>	lets try and draw this to a close...
Nov 25 23:04:20 <KTC>	Wikipedia Loves Art
Nov 25 23:04:27 <AndrewRT>	one quick thing
Nov 25 23:04:46 <cfp>	none of us are in london which seemed to be a requirement, though i only skimmed the emails
Nov 25 23:04:52 <cfp>	go on?
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Nov 25 23:05:01 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: want to go first?
Nov 25 23:05:08 <AndrewRT>	One thing we haven't included in the Articles, rules etc were the rules for elections
Nov 25 23:05:17 <AndrewRT>	can we start a consultation on these
Nov 25 23:05:25 <mpeel>	that's a good point and idea.
Nov 25 23:05:32 <AndrewRT>	when shoudl we aim to draft these by?
Nov 25 23:05:34 <cfp>	didn't we have a 5 hour discussion on that?
Nov 25 23:06:01 <AndrewRT>	elections? dont think so
Nov 25 23:06:09 <cfp>	we agreed on approval voting
Nov 25 23:06:19 <mpeel>	It was talked about a bit whilst we were drafting the M/AoA.
Nov 25 23:06:21 <AndrewRT>	I'm thinking, for instance, that directors will be elected by approval votin etc
Nov 25 23:06:35 <AndrewRT>	yes - but it wasn't formalised anywhere
Nov 25 23:06:42 <AndrewRT>	might be straightforward
Nov 25 23:06:45 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: want to take an action to draft something an email it around to the list?
Nov 25 23:06:51 <AndrewRT>	ok i'll do that
Nov 25 23:07:01 <cfp>	yeah lets minimise the amount of rediscussion we have to have
Nov 25 23:07:13 <mpeel>	we can then see where we're at with it during the next meeting...
Nov 25 23:07:19 <cfp>	i'd suggest glancing over the logs from the infinitely long meeting in whihc we discussed it
Nov 25 23:07:25 <AndrewRT>	will do
Nov 25 23:07:37 <mpeel>	Wikipedia Loves Art now?
Nov 25 23:07:56 <AndrewRT>	ok - WLA
Nov 25 23:07:57 <KTC>	sure
Nov 25 23:08:04 <AndrewRT>	what day is it?
Nov 25 23:08:06 <mpeel>	basically, PharosAlexandria wanted to know if there was anything we could do to help with it, in terms of organizing, etc.
Nov 25 23:08:13 <mpeel>	it lasts for the whole of february, I think.
Nov 25 23:08:18 <mpeel>	see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Loves_Art for details...
Nov 25 23:08:53 <mpeel>	Victoria and Albert Museum is already on board, but it would be good for them to have people in this country to contact, rather than it all going through New York.
Nov 25 23:08:59 <cfp>	i think we can promote it, but beyond that i'm not sure
Nov 25 23:09:23 <AndrewRT>	i would like to get involved
Nov 25 23:09:30 <cfp>	there may be a change of board between now and then
Nov 25 23:09:41 <AndrewRT>	I'm not the best photographer in teh world though!
Nov 25 23:09:51 <KTC>	even so. project like this is the very thing the chapter should be doing
Nov 25 23:09:58 <cfp>	yeah that's certainly true.
Nov 25 23:10:23 <KTC>	mpeel, aren't you our contact person? :D
Nov 25 23:10:25 <Warofdreams>	I wonder if there's any chance of getting one of the Oxford museums interested?  It might fit in with the Wikimania bid
Nov 25 23:10:26 <cfp>	well shall we find out more details of what's required of us then discuss in more detail next week
Nov 25 23:10:30 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: I was hoping someone would say that. I don't think photography skills are required. :)
Nov 25 23:10:39 <cfp>	most of the oxford museums are closed at the moment
Nov 25 23:10:41 <AndrewRT>	thats goog mpeel!
Nov 25 23:10:42 <cfp>	major work
Nov 25 23:10:43 <AndrewRT>	good
Nov 25 23:10:51 <mpeel>	KTC: I'm just the board member that was lurking in the IRC channel when Pharos was asking people about it.
Nov 25 23:10:59 <mpeel>	I'm a sciency person, not an arty one...
Nov 25 23:11:14 <Warofdreams>	cfp: that's a shame.  perhaps next year?
Nov 25 23:12:10 <AndrewRT>	ok shall we agenda it for next time then?
Nov 25 23:12:10 <cfp>	indeed
Nov 25 23:12:13 <mpeel>	I promised to send an email to Pharos with the outcome of this discussion: I'll do that, and will cc AndrewRT in on it, if that's OK. (or would cc'ing the whole board be best?)
Nov 25 23:12:14 <cfp>	yup
Nov 25 23:12:25 <cfp>	the whole board
Nov 25 23:12:27 <AndrewRT>	cc whole board if thats ok
Nov 25 23:12:28 <KTC>	mpeel, can you cc the whole board
Nov 25 23:12:29 <Warofdreams>	yes please
Nov 25 23:12:30 <mpeel>	ok, will do.
Nov 25 23:12:36 <cfp>	thanks
Nov 25 23:12:39 <AndrewRT>	no decision today?
Nov 25 23:12:44 <KTC>	anything else ?
Nov 25 23:12:47 <mpeel>	Quick return to phone: if a call comes through regarding something that another board member knows most about - e.g. cfp for Wikimania - am I OK to give the caller their phone number? (and could I have them, if so?)
Nov 25 23:12:58 <cfp>	yes
Nov 25 23:12:58 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - ok from me
Nov 25 23:13:05 <KTC>	mpeel , go back your emails
Nov 25 23:13:12 <KTC>	u should have all our numbers already
Nov 25 23:13:14 <KTC>	and yes
Nov 25 23:13:22 <mpeel>	ok, thanks.
Nov 25 23:13:25 <Warofdreams>	that's ok
Nov 25 23:13:50 <mpeel>	oh - also, one thing I missed from membership...
Nov 25 23:14:00 <mpeel>	Tango42: One suggestion - add a recommended donation to the membership form (say, a few check boxes "I would like to make an additional donation of £12", "I would like to make an additional donation of £50", "I would like to make an additional donation of ____"), people are more likely to donate if they see something like that.
Nov 25 23:14:06 <mpeel>	from after the last meeting.
Nov 25 23:14:32 <AndrewRT>	I'm happy for you to amend the membership form like this
Nov 25 23:14:45 <cfp>	seems sensible
Nov 25 23:14:49 <mpeel>	any opinions on amounts?
Nov 25 23:14:53 <cfp>	prepare a draft?
Nov 25 23:15:03 <cfp>	10, 25, 100?
Nov 25 23:15:13 <KTC>	round whole number, like what cfp suggested
Nov 25 23:15:37 <AndrewRT>	i agree with cfp
Nov 25 23:15:41 <Warofdreams>	those kind of amounts sound good
Nov 25 23:15:45 *	mpeel has quit ()
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Nov 25 23:16:01 *	ChanServ gives voice to mpeel
Nov 25 23:16:16 <AndrewRT>	are we ok to close now then?
Nov 25 23:16:28 <KTC>	anything else?
Nov 25 23:16:41 <Warofdreams>	does mpeel want to reply on that last point?
Nov 25 23:17:01 <mpeel>	"cfp: 10, 25, 100?"
Nov 25 23:17:03 <mpeel>	sounds fine to me
Nov 25 23:17:11 <mpeel>	I'll email around a draft for approval.
Nov 25 23:17:14 <Warofdreams>	excellent
Nov 25 23:17:20 <KTC>	that's it
Nov 25 23:17:21 <Warofdreams>	that's it then?
Nov 25 23:17:24 <KTC>	same time next week ?
Nov 25 23:17:34 <Warofdreams>	that's fine with me
Nov 25 23:17:42 <mpeel>	ok
Nov 25 23:17:47 <cfp>	monday'd be better again
Nov 25 23:17:54 <Warofdreams>	Monday also OK with me
Nov 25 23:18:01 <cfp>	but i'll survbive with tuesday
Nov 25 23:18:09 <mpeel>	either monday or tuesday is fine with me
Nov 25 23:18:13 <KTC>	AndrewRT ?
Nov 25 23:19:00 <cfp>	long gone it seems
Nov 25 23:19:03 <AndrewRT>	sorry
Nov 25 23:19:03 <Warofdreams>	for the logs, it's 23:20
Nov 25 23:19:07 <AndrewRT>	back now
Nov 25 23:19:12 <AndrewRT>	either is fine with me
Nov 25 23:19:20 <KTC>	monday then?
Nov 25 23:19:27 <Warofdreams>	seems it suits everyone
Nov 25 23:19:31 <AndrewRT>	k
Nov 25 23:19:33 <cfp>	cool thanks
Nov 25 23:19:34 <mpeel>	ok
Nov 25 23:19:42 <cfp>	sorry for being a pain
Nov 25 23:19:44 <KTC>	okay, bye bye every1
Nov 25 23:19:46 <KTC>	np :)
Nov 25 23:19:49 <cfp>	see you all then
Nov 25 23:20:02 <AndrewRT>	bye then
Nov 25 23:20:03 <Warofdreams>	great. sorry I missed the start of the meeting.
Nov 25 23:20:07 <Warofdreams>	bye
Nov 25 23:20:08 <AndrewRT>	close 23:20
Nov 25 23:20:11 <mpeel>	g'bye all
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#wikimedia-uk

Nov 25 20:31:27 <AndrewRT>	good turnout tonight :)
Nov 25 20:31:36 <AndrewRT>	welcome everyone!
Nov 25 20:31:58 <mpeel>	does everyone in here know that the meeting will actually be in #wikimedia-uk-board ?
Nov 25 20:32:13 <Seddon>	NOOOO :P 
Nov 25 20:32:16 <Seddon>	yes actually :P
Nov 25 20:32:30 <Tango42>	it does say so in the topic, but I guess that doesn't mean much!
Nov 25 20:32:33 <AndrewRT>	hmm the attendence list would suggest otherwise....
Nov 25 20:32:51 <mpeel>	the attendance list is why I mentioned it. :)
Nov 25 20:39:34 *	VicFedex (n=VicFedex@201.206.51.186) has joined #wikimedia-uk
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Nov 25 20:42:09 <AndrewRT>	I've had the M&A and Form 10 certified 
Nov 25 20:42:18 <AndrewRT>	and sent to cfp - he's received it
Nov 25 20:42:35 <KTC>	wrong channel ;)
Nov 25 20:42:47 <AndrewRT>	sorry!
Nov 25 20:43:19 *	VicFedex is now known as Dark
Nov 25 20:45:10 *	Dark is now known as VicFedex
Nov 25 20:48:19 <cfp>	Note to all watchers: the meeting is temporarily going in camera to discuss necessarily private details of the Wikimania Oxford bid.
Nov 25 20:48:42 <Tango42>	CABAL! CABAL!
Nov 25 20:48:56 <cfp>	yes i know. i'm sorry, but it really has to be discussed privately
Nov 25 20:48:56 <KTC>	details would be revealed later if/when appropriate
Nov 25 20:49:13 <cfp>	if there was a reasonable alternative we wouldn't be
Nov 25 20:49:15 <Tango42>	yeah, yeah, that's what they all say ;)
Nov 25 20:49:20 <cfp>	haha
Nov 25 20:49:27 <KTC>	true :D
Nov 25 20:49:46 <Majorly_>	zomg
Nov 25 20:49:53 *	skenmy was wondering what had happened to the oxford bid
Nov 25 20:49:54 <Majorly_>	what, there's still a bid?
Nov 25 20:50:12 *	VicFedex is now known as Dark
Nov 25 20:50:20 <Tango42>	(You probably know this, but make sure you get the minutes right - you'll need two versions, the private bits do need to be minuted)
Nov 25 20:50:25 <AndrewRT>	This is the bid for Wikimania 2010
Nov 25 20:50:35 <AndrewRT>	Tango - yes that's fine
Nov 25 20:50:46 <AndrewRT>	redacted minutes will be published
Nov 25 20:51:27 <skenmy>	What on earth could be so private about the bid? :P
Nov 25 20:51:37 <AndrewRT>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2010/Bids/Oxford
Nov 25 20:52:01 <Tango42>	I was wondering that... Perhaps sponsorship stuff?
Nov 25 20:56:22 <skenmy>	drumroll
Nov 25 20:57:34 <AndrewRT>	be back soon - sorry about this
Nov 25 20:57:37 *	Tango42 watches the tumbleweed...
Nov 25 20:58:13 *	Majorly has quit (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out))
Nov 25 20:58:36 <skenmy>	it would reduce the tension if we even had an inkling of what you are talking about
Nov 25 20:58:46 <skenmy>	or perhaps why it has to be secret
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Nov 25 20:59:33 <Tango42>	yeah, but it's often best to keep the whole lot secret, otherwise you have to think really hard about where to draw the line
Nov 25 20:59:52 <AndrewRT>	sorry
Nov 25 21:00:09 <AndrewRT>	one minute it'll be clear
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Nov 25 21:04:08 <cfp>	has that satiated your curiosity?
Nov 25 21:04:14 <skenmy>	yus!
Nov 25 21:05:10 <AndrewRT>	hope thats clear now
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Nov 25 21:08:01 <Seddon>	does the board/company have a contact number yet?
Nov 25 21:08:09 <KTC>	phone?
Nov 25 21:08:18 <KTC>	that's a point later on the agenda ;)
Nov 25 21:08:29 <Seddon>	ahhh ok
Nov 25 21:08:39 <Seddon>	il have to be patient
Nov 25 21:09:27 <cfp>	seddon: i'm happy to give you my mobile if it's of any use
Nov 25 21:10:39 <Seddon>	ill get it off you another time, my fone is somewhat buggered atm
Nov 25 21:11:12 <Seddon>	a suggestion
Nov 25 21:11:52 <Seddon>	we should look to add other non board positions to the company to take care of things like, overseas members etc 
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Nov 25 21:14:14 <Tango42>	If it turns out the board can't cope with the workload then, yes, they'll need to delegate. I'm not sure we're at that stage yet, though.
Nov 25 21:15:35 <Tango42>	let's leave something for all the other chapters to do!
Nov 25 21:17:59 <Seddon>	:P
Nov 25 21:19:01 <Seddon>	I have one questio about overseas people
Nov 25 21:19:36 <KTC>	just ask
Nov 25 21:19:38 <KTC>	:)
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Nov 25 21:20:34 <Seddon>	what about british overseas territories
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Nov 25 21:23:38 <mpeel>	they're not formally part of the UK
Nov 25 21:24:07 <mpeel>	I don't know whether they use the same legal framework as the UK.
Nov 25 21:24:54 <Seddon>	that need to be looked into, along with ilse of mann and channel islands
Nov 25 21:24:59 <AndrewRT>	Seddon - did you have any overseas territories in mind?
Nov 25 21:25:22 <Seddon>	particularly ilse of mann
Nov 25 21:25:50 <Seddon>	not saying we have a great number of editors, but taxation etc should be looked into
Nov 25 21:26:00 <Seddon>	they*
Nov 25 21:26:14 <Tango42>	The isle of mann is not part of the UK, but there's no reason why we couldn't try and cater to them as well.
Nov 25 21:27:00 <Tango42>	They're not UK tax payers, as I understand it, so I doubt HMRC is going to give us any tax back on their donations.
Nov 25 21:27:51 <Seddon>	but are there way of claiming tax from mann, i know its making alot from nothing
Nov 25 21:28:00 <Seddon>	but in future these are things to be looking at
Nov 25 21:28:32 <Tango42>	It's a good question and worth looking into - I'll see if I can find anything about it now
Nov 25 21:28:32 <mpeel>	it would be interesting to know how much the wikimedia foundation gets in donations from the isle of mann.
Nov 25 21:28:56 <mpeel>	that would be an indication of how worth doing it would be.
Nov 25 21:29:03 <Seddon>	mpeel: and other british, territories, dependancies, 
Nov 25 21:29:08 <Seddon>	etc etc
Nov 25 21:29:27 <mpeel>	of course
Nov 25 21:29:41 <Tango42>	I doubt they know, they only know by currency, I think, and according to Wikipedia, the Isle of Mann uses GBP
Nov 25 21:34:54 <Seddon>	oh oh major point here
Nov 25 21:34:59 <Seddon>	needs to discussed
Nov 25 21:35:28 <Seddon>	you may need to put a check box on the membership form allowing claiming of gift aid
Nov 25 21:35:44 <Tango42>	Ok, at first glance it looks like to get charitable status on Mann we would need to have some Manx people running a subsidiary there. They may wish to do that, or they may wish to form their own chapter - I say we let them decide, if they want to work through us, I'm all for it.
Nov 25 21:35:50 <Seddon>	and subsequent forms
Nov 25 21:35:52 <Warofdreams>	Seddon: that's a very good point
Nov 25 21:36:22 <Seddon>	i believe you have to get permission, you cant just take it
Nov 25 21:36:26 <Seddon>	claim*
Nov 25 21:36:33 <mpeel>	my understanding was that it was a seperate form
Nov 25 21:37:09 <Seddon>	i have donated where the check box was on the same form
Nov 25 21:37:19 <Seddon>	they just have a little section explaining
Nov 25 21:37:21 <mpeel>	it's possible to get approval from people to retroactively claim gift aid on amounts paid recently-ish.
Nov 25 21:37:56 <Tango42>	The check box can certainly be on the same form, but that needs to wait until we actually have charitable status for tax purposes. Anyone that joins before then will have to agree retroactively.
Nov 25 21:38:35 <Seddon>	ok so it should be noted for when tax exemption is gained
Nov 25 21:38:48 seanw Seddon 
Nov 25 21:38:51 <KTC>	yes, thank you for the reminder Seddon 
Nov 25 21:39:15 <Seddon>	its ok :) just making up for the meetings i missed before :P
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Nov 25 21:39:56 <Seddon>	what about giro's?
Nov 25 21:40:15 <Warofdreams>	do you mean postal orders?
Nov 25 21:40:28 <Warofdreams>	if so, we can pay them in at the bank as with cheques
Nov 25 21:40:31 <cfp>	giro's are just cheques
Nov 25 21:40:35 <cfp>	so they're fine
Nov 25 21:41:18 <Tango42>	I'm not sure a standing order form would work - it's probably a different form for each bank
Nov 25 21:41:26 <Seddon>	ok cool, it could be worthwhile having a giro form created as well, when people select method of payment, they can be directed to appropriate form :)
Nov 25 21:42:54 <cfp>	a standing order form i imagine would just have a box for you to choose a unique payment reference
Nov 25 21:43:11 <cfp>	and your membership would be activated when a payment with that ref was received
Nov 25 21:43:33 <cfp>	did any of you go to the last wikimeet?
Nov 25 21:44:10 <Seddon>	http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimania_2010/Bids/Draft_timeline for reference
Nov 25 21:45:08 <cfp>	that hasn't changed in 5 months
Nov 25 21:45:15 <cfp>	the main timeline page still says
Nov 25 21:45:22 <cfp>	A postmortem of Wikimania 2008 is presently occurring. The bidding timeline will be determined at a later date.
Nov 25 21:45:22 <Seddon>	i didnt even know it was there :P
Nov 25 21:45:32 *	Seddon walks away ashamed :P
Nov 25 21:45:32 <cfp>	oh well i had an argument on the comments page for it
Nov 25 21:46:05 <cfp>	that's the only reason i remembered it's existence.
Nov 25 21:48:34 <Warofdreams>	tango: how do you feel about the current form of wording?
Nov 25 21:50:48 <Tango42>	oh, someone's talking to me! hang on...
Nov 25 21:50:48 <Warofdreams>	Tango42: any views?
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Nov 25 21:51:54 <cfp>	see page 3 of this pdf for why we need a general authority: http://www.co-operativebank.co.uk/cfscombi/pdf/CFS_COMMAPP_WEB.pdf
Nov 25 21:51:55 <Tango42>	It it specifically says "in connection with the opening and operation of the bank account. " then it isn't "general"
Nov 25 21:52:21 <cfp>	no that's what i was saying
Nov 25 21:52:29 <Tango42>	I put a proposed wording on the talk page somewhere, I think that's the best way to go (most of it is copied from the actual Act of Parliament)
Nov 25 21:52:35 <cfp>	so neither without the proviso nor with the proviso is ideal
Nov 25 21:52:49 <cfp>	where??
Nov 25 21:53:00 <cfp>	it's not on the talk page of the resolution
Nov 25 21:53:06 <Tango42>	no, the main talk page
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Nov 25 21:53:07 <Tango42>	I'll find it
Nov 25 21:53:20 <mpeel>	somewhere on http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Talk:Wikimedia_UK_v2.0#Resolution_to_delegate_powers ?
Nov 25 21:53:27 <Tango42>	"Pursuant to Section 82 of the Charities Act 1993, the Board of Directors confers upon X and Y, acting together, a general authority to execute in the name and on behalf of the charity assurances or other deeds or instruments for giving effect to transactions to which the charity is a party and have been approved by the Board or its delegate(s)."
Nov 25 21:54:04 <mpeel>	isn't most of that dealt with by the "Pursuant to Section 82" bit?
Nov 25 21:54:07 <Tango42>	What this is talking about is the power to sign things on behalf of the charity, it's not about actually agreeing to them, it's just about the signature
Nov 25 21:54:24 <AndrewRT>	Presumably under this wording the two people could execute agreements other than writing cheques? Such as renting a hall?
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Nov 25 21:54:36 <Tango42>	Anything that requires signatures, yes
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Nov 25 21:54:44 <AndrewRT>	And do we want that?
Nov 25 21:54:57 <AndrewRT>	Or should we restrict this to things relating to the coop?
Nov 25 21:55:25 <Seddon>	for the time being that would work
Nov 25 21:55:28 <Tango42>	An incorporated charity agrees to contracts in its own name (rather than the names of the trustees as with an unincorporated charity), however a charity can't actually sign anything so it needs to give someone the power to actually write the signature on the piece of paper
Nov 25 21:55:31 <Seddon>	it can be expanded in future
Nov 25 21:55:45 <Tango42>	that power is the general authority that is referred to in the Act
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Nov 25 21:56:20 <mpeel>	isn't the form of the resolution something that should be checked with the co-op prior to submitting the application?
Nov 25 21:56:43 <Tango42>	well, it wouldn't hurt to check, but I just copied it from the Act so it should be fine
Nov 25 21:56:58 <mpeel>	obviously a restricted one would be best from our point of view, but if they need a general one then we don't have a choice in the matter.
Nov 25 21:57:09 <Tango42>	there is no need to restrict it, it's just the power to sign things, not the power to agree to them
Nov 25 21:57:39 <Tango42>	You need something like this in order to function at all
Nov 25 21:57:58 <Tango42>	You can't even sign the chapters agreement with the WMF without giving someone the authority to execute it
Nov 25 21:58:02 <cfp>	tango do you have a preferred wording?
Nov 25 21:58:22 <cfp>	this here: "Pursuant to Section 82 of the Charities Act 1993, the Board of Directors confers upon X and Y, acting together, a general authority to execute in the name and on behalf of the charity assurances or other deeds or instruments for giving effect to transactions to which the charity is a party and have been approved by the Board or its delegate(s)." ?
Nov 25 21:58:26 <Tango42>	Yes
Nov 25 22:02:09 <Tango42>	er... you may want to fill in the X and Y bits...
Nov 25 22:03:44 <Tango42>	In the interests of completeness, I'll repeat what I said on the talk page: The Act also allows for the authority to be conferred in some way other than to named individuals - for example, you may want to consider "confers upon any two directors acting together" or "confers upon the Treasurer and the Secretary acting together" or anything like that (the wording is mine, but I'm reasonably...
Nov 25 22:03:45 <Tango42>	...sure that's what the Act is talking about). How exactly you would fill out of the bank's form for that, I don't know, but they would probably accept just the names on the form as long as the supporting documentation makes it clear that those names correspond with the people described in the resolution. (Incidentally, it seems odd for the Chair not to be one of the people, but maybe that's...
Nov 25 22:03:47 <Tango42>	...just me.)
Nov 25 22:06:15 <Tango42>	if you specify names and offices then you'll probably need a new resolution if either of those changes (eg. after the AGM), if you stick to one or the other it's less likely to need changing
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Nov 25 22:09:56 <Tango42>	this would be the kind of thing that would be good to run past a lawyer...
Nov 25 22:10:41 <mpeel>	that might be a good idea, if we went for the general any-two-positions phrasing...
Nov 25 22:10:57 <Tango42>	I think it would be a good idea either way
Nov 25 22:11:20 <Tango42>	we have only my understanding to go on that the approval bit I added is legally valid
Nov 25 22:12:03 <mpeel>	if there's a problem with the named-person version, then there's limited risk, and the co-op is likely to flag it anyway.
Nov 25 22:12:41 <Tango42>	true, the co-op should point out any problems. I think the risk is pretty much the same regardless of who has the power
Nov 25 22:15:20 <Tango42>	the act says: "subject to any such restriction, and until it is revoked, shall, notwithstanding any change in the charity trustees, have effect as a continuing authority given by the charity trustees from time to time of the charity and exercisable by such trustees."
Nov 25 22:15:31 <Tango42>	Does that mean they keep the power even after stopping being trustees?
Nov 25 22:15:47 <KTC>	"the Treasurer, Tom Holden, and the Company Secretary, Andrew Turvey"
Nov 25 22:16:04 <KTC>	if they're not that position, it's no longer valid
Nov 25 22:16:10 <mpeel>	do we need "so long as they hold said positions" appended?
Nov 25 22:16:29 <AndrewRT>	KTC: that's my interpretation too
Nov 25 22:16:41 <Tango42>	Yeah, I think if you specify the offices you're ok
Nov 25 22:16:46 <mpeel>	ok
Nov 25 22:17:13 <Warofdreams>	I'm not concerned; they can only act on a decision of the board anyway, so there shouldn't be any arguments
Nov 25 22:19:02 <Tango42>	I'm not entirely sure how it works. It may well be that if they sign something it's binding on the charity and the charity could then sue them for damages for acting outside their authority, but they may well not have the assets to cover the damages, so the charity would lose out.
Nov 25 22:19:16 <Tango42>	This is why we need a solicitor...
Nov 25 22:20:13 <cfp>	in matters of ambiguous interpretation the law would look at the minutes of the meeting
Nov 25 22:20:23 <cfp>	and in the minutes we've said how we understand this
Nov 25 22:20:24 <cfp>	so it's fine
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Nov 25 22:22:17 <Tango42>	If it's legally ambiguous, sure, but what if there is a standard way of interpreting such things that we just don't know?
Nov 25 22:23:38 <cfp>	no it's still what we meant that matters
Nov 25 22:23:55 <cfp>	in the unlikely circumstance in which this came up in a court of law, we'd be ok...
Nov 25 22:24:57 <Tango42>	Are you sure? While we could certainly sue the signatories for acting outside their authority, are you sure what they signed wouldn't still be binding?
Nov 25 22:25:25 <Tango42>	A dedicated mobile phone would also have dedicated voicemail - that's the important bit
Nov 25 22:25:46 <Seddon>	i have a number i will no longer be using for the foreseeable future
Nov 25 22:26:06 <Seddon>	i have a spare fone as well
Nov 25 22:26:09 <Tango42>	PAYG?
Nov 25 22:26:19 <Seddon>	correct
Nov 25 22:26:42 <Tango42>	that sounds good to me
Nov 25 22:27:06 <mpeel>	for the record: I also have a spare phone, and a pay-as-you-go sim, which aren't doing anything.
Nov 25 22:27:17 <cfp>	i have a spare phone now too
Nov 25 22:27:23 <Tango42>	I doubt anyone can always be available to answer the phone, hence the need for voicemail, and the voicemail ought to have a professional sounding message rather than whatever is on the contact's personal voicemail
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Nov 25 22:31:45 <Seddon>	given the nature of being in first year uni, im available quite a bit in the day so i dont mind offering my services
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Nov 25 22:34:41 <Tango42>	You know everyone will just phone the first number in the list, right?
Nov 25 22:34:56 <Tango42>	and if they get no answer there, they'll give up
Nov 25 22:35:00 <mpeel>	yup...but they'll then phone the second one if they don't get an answer on the first...
Nov 25 22:35:08 <mpeel>	if it's a serious enquiry
Nov 25 22:35:59 <Tango42>	If it's a journalist they'll probably just say "We contacted Wikimedia UK for an interview but they did not immeadiately return out call."
Nov 25 22:36:27 <mpeel>	only if they're pushing a deadline, hopefully...
Nov 25 22:39:07 <Tango42>	don't forget to budget!
Nov 25 22:41:42 <Tango42>	if people are returning calls after a redirected voicemail, it will be on their phone, not the PAYG one
Nov 25 22:42:14 <cfp>	which will just be a donation to the charity i presume
Nov 25 22:42:15 <KTC>	*nod*
Nov 25 22:42:24 <cfp>	i wouldn't expect expense statements for that
Nov 25 22:42:35 <KTC>	i have a contract that i bearly ever use
Nov 25 22:42:41 <KTC>	i'll live :D
Nov 25 22:42:43 <Tango42>	I think it would be simpler to keep it to one person so you have a proper voicemail and proper budgeting (say £10 a month max without requiring authorisaiton [just a receipt to get reimbursed], can get authorisation to go over)
Nov 25 22:42:49 <mpeel>	I'll probably use my main phone to return calls - that has plenty of unused minutes on it.
Nov 25 22:43:32 <cfp>	it's not about simpler, it's about keeping expenses down
Nov 25 22:43:41 <cfp>	at least until we start to get some income
Nov 25 22:43:45 <Tango42>	I still think a proper voicemail is needed, rather than just some random board member's personal voicemail
Nov 25 22:43:56 <cfp>	it all racks up very quickly, and at this point we really need to keep our belt tight
Nov 25 22:43:57 <Tango42>	And is there a cost to forward calls?
Nov 25 22:44:19 <cfp>	mpeel won't be forwarding most of the time, so it will be proper voicemail
Nov 25 22:44:27 <cfp>	and i'm told there's no cost for call forwarding
Nov 25 22:45:01 <Warofdreams>	correct.
Nov 25 22:45:23 <Tango42>	but the times when he is forwarding will be the times when he isn't able to answer the phone, which is when voicemail may be required
Nov 25 22:45:35 <cfp>	no not necessarily.
Nov 25 22:46:04 <cfp>	i never turn my phone off vibrate mode, so i often miss calls. it doesn't mean i wasn't actually able to take them at that point though
Nov 25 22:46:23 <cfp>	so were i mpeel i wouldn't have forwarded in that situation
Nov 25 22:46:57 <mpeel>	My plan would be: the phone would be on most of the time, but may be unattended (e.g. if I have to go to the Observatory). It would then go to the answer phone, and I'd return the calls at the end of the day.
Nov 25 22:47:02 <Tango42>	could we get a voicemail that allows other people to phone in and collect the messages? Then MP could just let someone know they'll need to check the voicemail periodically (once or twice a day would probably suffice) while he's away
Nov 25 22:47:27 <mpeel>	There may be times when I'm not around - e.g. if I'm not in the country. Then, I'd either pass the phone on to someone else on the board, or redirect it.
Nov 25 22:47:40 <Tango42>	mpeel: That sounds like what I'd recommend, so forwarding would just be for absences of more than a day?
Nov 25 22:47:46 <mpeel>	yes
Nov 25 22:48:11 <mpeel>	unless we decide it's best done another way.
Nov 25 22:49:00 <Tango42>	Make sure the voicemail message points out that we're all volunteers and then hopefully people won't mind waiting to be called back
Nov 25 22:50:23 *	Seddon sends cfp, thousands of stamps
Nov 25 22:50:24 <mpeel>	I was planning on something like "Thank you for calling Wiki UK Limited. No-one can answer the phone right now, but please leave a message and we'll phone you back as soon as we can."
Nov 25 22:52:51 <Tango42>	the classic approach? Always good!
Nov 25 22:54:52 <mpeel>	A possible addendum would be: "Please bear in mind that we are all volunteers, and that we may phone you back after office hours unless you request otherwise."
Nov 25 22:59:31 <Seddon>	point here for the board
Nov 25 23:00:01 <Seddon>	a list of people who are happy to have there names made publicshould be fine
Nov 25 23:00:39 <cfp>	well if they want to publicise the fact they're members they're welcome too
Nov 25 23:00:54 <cfp>	but i see no reason whatsoever why we should go to the hassle of maintaining a public list
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Nov 25 23:15:40 <mpeel>	brb: my client's not letting me send messages to the board meeting now... :(
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Nov 25 23:18:36 <mpeel>	Tango42: would Monday fit in better with your poker games? ;-)
Nov 25 23:18:43 <KTC>	:D
Nov 25 23:18:51 <Tango42>	probably!
Nov 25 23:19:42 <Tango42>	mpeel: don't forget to have a fill-in-the-blank option for donations as well
Nov 25 23:19:50 <mpeel>	of course
Nov 25 23:19:58 <mpeel>	that's what I was typing when my client went funny. :(