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Dec 01 20:26:25 *	Now talking on #wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 20:26:26 *	Topic for #wikimedia-uk-board is: The next Wikimedia UK board meeting is tonight at 8.30pm UTC | Only board members are voiced. If you wish to make a comment, please use #wikimedia-uk. | Channel will be publicly logged during board meeting
Dec 01 20:26:26 *	Topic for #wikimedia-uk-board set by mpeel at Mon Dec 01 19:41:04 2008
Dec 01 20:26:26 *	ChanServ gives voice to KTC
Dec 01 20:26:50 <cfp>	someone voice wod
Dec 01 20:27:01 <cfp>	i'm not entirely sure how
Dec 01 20:27:22 *	ChanServ gives voice to Warofdreams
Dec 01 20:27:25 <KTC>	/cs voice #wikimedia-uk-board Warofdreams 
Dec 01 20:27:29 <Warofdreams>	thank you
Dec 01 20:27:37 <cfp>	and now i know.
Dec 01 20:28:19 *	balasyum (n=balasyum@wikimedia/balasyum) has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 20:28:24 <AndrewRT>	hi all
Dec 01 20:28:29 <cfp>	evenin'
Dec 01 20:28:48 <KTC>	right, we're all here, shall we start ?
Dec 01 20:29:07 <AndrewRT>	sure
Dec 01 20:29:10 <cfp>	yeah lets get the pain over with...
Dec 01 20:29:17 <KTC>	:D
Dec 01 20:29:18 <KTC>
Dec 01 20:29:19 <mpeel>	g'evening, and ok
Dec 01 20:29:29 <KTC>
Dec 01 20:29:32 <mpeel>	KTC: I've added a couple of things to the agenda. Are they OK?
Dec 01 20:29:36 <KTC>	sure :)
Dec 01 20:30:08 <KTC>	hmm, only just saw the second thing you added, but yep :)
Dec 01 20:30:36 <KTC>	how's the minutes, everyone happy ?
Dec 01 20:30:50 *	PharosAlexandria (n=chatzill@ has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 20:31:04 <mpeel>	I have one issue
Dec 01 20:31:06 <mpeel>	"MP agreed to amend the membership form to include a box for additional donations."
Dec 01 20:31:07 <AndrewRT>	no comments on the talk page
Dec 01 20:31:12 <mpeel>	please could that be changed to "MP agreed to amend the membership form to include suggested donation amounts."
Dec 01 20:31:23 <AndrewRT>	I'm fine with that shall i change?
Dec 01 20:31:24 <mpeel>	a box for additional donations was already present on the form
Dec 01 20:31:33 <KTC>	go ahead andrew
Dec 01 20:31:48 <Warofdreams>	the numbering is a little off, but I don't think it matters too much - it'd be difficult to fix with wiki markup
Dec 01 20:31:57 <Warofdreams>	otherwise, good job, and thanks for covering for me!
Dec 01 20:32:17 *	balasyum has quit (Client Quit)
Dec 01 20:32:34 <AndrewRT>	thx!
Dec 01 20:32:48 <AndrewRT>	done
Dec 01 20:33:11 <KTC>	if that's that, matter arising ?
Dec 01 20:33:28 <KTC>	4.1 bank account opening - how's the application tom ?
Dec 01 20:33:32 <cfp>	applications off
Dec 01 20:33:36 <KTC>	:)
Dec 01 20:33:36 <cfp>	we're waiting for them now
Dec 01 20:33:41 <mpeel>	great
Dec 01 20:33:44 <cfp>	it was delayed a little due to dieing fax machines
Dec 01 20:33:53 <AndrewRT>	u got it in teh end then?
Dec 01 20:33:57 <cfp>	yeah
Dec 01 20:34:01 <Warofdreams>	excellent
Dec 01 20:34:02 <AndrewRT>	gd!
Dec 01 20:34:20 <cfp>	not much else to report
Dec 01 20:34:21 <AndrewRT>	hopefully something to discuss next week
Dec 01 20:34:33 <cfp>	yup. fingers crossed it all goes smoothly
Dec 01 20:34:41 <mpeel>	when was the application submitted?
Dec 01 20:34:42 <AndrewRT>	2. WER was me
Dec 01 20:35:06 <AndrewRT>	cfp?
Dec 01 20:35:25 <cfp>	today in the end (Andrew sent the fax on thursday, was told it'd be fixed on friday, it wasn't and i was in london anyway)
Dec 01 20:35:47 <KTC>	right, thanks cfp :)
Dec 01 20:35:48 <cfp>	(on sat they said it'd be fixed on monday, so it seemed worth waiting)
Dec 01 20:36:04 <KTC>	AndrewRT, got your email re. WER Ltd.
Dec 01 20:36:11 <AndrewRT>	yes WER:
Dec 01 20:36:25 <AndrewRT>	I was asked to approach WER to get their register of members
Dec 01 20:36:30 <AndrewRT>	so we could approach them to join us
Dec 01 20:36:35 <AndrewRT>	I wrote to Alison
Dec 01 20:36:43 <AndrewRT>	she replied: teh only members were the directors
Dec 01 20:36:53 <AndrewRT>	so unfortunately not much help!
Dec 01 20:36:56 <AndrewRT>	worth a go I suppose
Dec 01 20:37:01 <Warofdreams>	I'm not surprised, but no harm in checking
Dec 01 20:37:18 <AndrewRT>	shall i go on to HMRC?
Dec 01 20:37:18 <Warofdreams>	Hopefully we can at least get most of them to join!
Dec 01 20:37:28 <KTC>	sure
Dec 01 20:37:33 <AndrewRT>	WarofDreams: Yes, definitely!
Dec 01 20:37:40 <AndrewRT>	ok HMRC - haven't heard back yet
Dec 01 20:37:45 <KTC>	Warofdreams, i think a couple at least would be interested once we are fully up
Dec 01 20:37:47 <AndrewRT>	hopefully will have something to report next week
Dec 01 20:38:17 <KTC>	4.4 have we appropached any one that go to the meet and if so, what's the response if any ?
Dec 01 20:38:22 <mpeel>	User:Ironholds has agreed to write up London 16 (14 December)
Dec 01 20:38:31 <cfp>	cool
Dec 01 20:38:31 <KTC>	great! :)
Dec 01 20:38:35 <AndrewRT>	where will the write up go?
Dec 01 20:38:35 <Warofdreams>	excellent
Dec 01 20:38:46 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: into the newsletter
Dec 01 20:38:52 <AndrewRT>	but for now?
Dec 01 20:38:57 <AndrewRT>	straight into the Dec one?
Dec 01 20:39:03 <Warofdreams>	yes, I would say
Dec 01 20:39:07 <mpeel>	well, there's still 13 days before this wikimeet happens...
Dec 01 20:39:18 <AndrewRT>	yeah I suppose that makes sense
Dec 01 20:39:19 <mpeel>	meetup page is at BTW. is any of us planning on going?
Dec 01 20:39:21 <Warofdreams>	we currently have a red link, but by 14th, we should have something in place
Dec 01 20:39:39 <KTC>	might go in jan, but not this one
Dec 01 20:39:44 <Warofdreams>	mpeel: not me
Dec 01 20:39:54 <Warofdreams>	will be down there a week later :(
Dec 01 20:40:11 <AndrewRT>	mpeel: me too - may go in Jan but cant Dec
Dec 01 20:40:18 <AndrewRT>	:<
Dec 01 20:40:24 <mpeel>	I also can't make it - have to work that day.
Dec 01 20:40:37 <KTC>	4.5 phone. is that up and running?
Dec 01 20:40:40 <mpeel>	yup
Dec 01 20:40:44 <cfp>	i doubt i'll be able to make it as i get back from amsterdam the previous day
Dec 01 20:40:45 <KTC>	any calls ?
Dec 01 20:40:46 <mpeel>	Telephone number 07988 013 646
Dec 01 20:40:48 <mpeel>	nope
Dec 01 20:40:58 <mpeel>	I only managed to get the phone working a few days ago, I'm afraid
Dec 01 20:41:07 <mpeel>	the battery refused to work for a while
Dec 01 20:41:11 <mpeel>	seems fine now, though.
Dec 01 20:41:27 <AndrewRT>	I'm sure you're standing by with bated breath waiting for the flood! :)
Dec 01 20:41:30 <Warofdreams>	the number hasn't been publicised (except I guess it is now up on the web page)
Dec 01 20:41:39 <Warofdreams>	so I'm not surprised by the current lack of calls
Dec 01 20:42:03 <KTC>	yeah
Dec 01 20:42:05 <mpeel>	I have yet to put any credit on the phone, BTW - I plan to put £10 onto it in the near future, and will submit an expenses form when i've done so.
Dec 01 20:43:03 <KTC>	wikimediauk-l then
Dec 01 20:43:04 <cfp>	ok
Dec 01 20:43:09 <KTC>	saw the email you just sent
Dec 01 20:43:24 <Warofdreams>	yes, I remembered this when looking through the agenda
Dec 01 20:43:26 <AndrewRT>	is it working now?
Dec 01 20:43:27 <cfp>	lets hope it's not ignored
Dec 01 20:43:35 <Warofdreams>	so I hope to receive a reply soonish
Dec 01 20:43:49 <mpeel>	give it a week at the most, then phone them if you haven't heard anything back?
Dec 01 20:44:08 <Warofdreams>	David's been good at replying in general, so I'm optimistic that we'll get a reply
Dec 01 20:44:30 <mpeel>	ok
Dec 01 20:44:47 *	ChanServ gives voice to PharosAlexandria
Dec 01 20:45:00 <KTC>	4.7 Wikipedia Loves Art then ?
Dec 01 20:45:01 <PharosAlexandria>	hi all
Dec 01 20:45:06 <cfp>	heya
Dec 01 20:45:07 <KTC>	hello pharos :)
Dec 01 20:45:11 <Warofdreams>	welcome!
Dec 01 20:45:16 <AndrewRT>	hi Pharos, welcome
Dec 01 20:45:18 <AndrewRT>	thanks for coming by
Dec 01 20:45:20 <PharosAlexandria>	thanks!
Dec 01 20:45:43 <PharosAlexandria>	should I start?
Dec 01 20:45:48 <AndrewRT>	I've had a few brief messages about this with Pharos
Dec 01 20:45:49 <KTC>	sure go ahead
Dec 01 20:46:03 <AndrewRT>	please Pharos - what did you have in mind us doing to help?
Dec 01 20:46:29 <PharosAlexandria>	OK, we've been organizing a photo scavenger contest, in case you're not familiar with it
Dec 01 20:46:49 <PharosAlexandria>
Dec 01 20:47:13 <PharosAlexandria>	basically, what you can do is...
Dec 01 20:48:08 <PharosAlexandria>	talk to the folks at the V&A
Dec 01 20:48:08 <PharosAlexandria>	help them write a list of targets
Dec 01 20:48:08 <PharosAlexandria>	promote the event to the free culture community and other folks
Dec 01 20:48:08 <PharosAlexandria>	maybe find other interested museums to participate
Dec 01 20:48:08 <PharosAlexandria>	stuff like that, nothing budgetary
Dec 01 20:48:15 <AndrewRT>	who has spoken to the V&A so far?
Dec 01 20:48:32 <PharosAlexandria>	The Brooklyn Museum people
Dec 01 20:48:36 <KTC>	any idea what V&A is doing on the day ?
Dec 01 20:48:38 <AndrewRT>	oh i see!
Dec 01 20:48:46 <PharosAlexandria>	so, you folks can take it from here...
Dec 01 20:48:55 <PharosAlexandria>	it'll be a month long
Dec 01 20:49:09 <AndrewRT>	could you let me know the contact I should approach at the V&A?
Dec 01 20:49:10 <PharosAlexandria>	but I imagine they'll have at least one special meetup
Dec 01 20:49:11 <KTC>	i know, but i thought they were doing something in particular on a particular day
Dec 01 20:49:33 <PharosAlexandria>	yeah, you probably should try for that
Dec 01 20:49:52 <AndrewRT>	Am I right to think no date has been set yet then?
Dec 01 20:49:59 <PharosAlexandria>	Andrew, I think I e-mailed you the contact info
Dec 01 20:50:04 <PharosAlexandria>	I'll send it again
Dec 01 20:50:14 <PharosAlexandria>	the month is February 2009
Dec 01 20:50:24 <PharosAlexandria>	no single date for an event set
Dec 01 20:50:34 <PharosAlexandria>	our event will probably be Feb 7
Dec 01 20:50:49 <PharosAlexandria>	but that is probably irrelevant to you folks
Dec 01 20:50:51 <AndrewRT>	is that Gail Durban?
Dec 01 20:50:57 <PharosAlexandria>	yeah
Dec 01 20:51:03 <AndrewRT>	cheers I follow up with her then
Dec 01 20:51:08 <AndrewRT>	see what we can do
Dec 01 20:51:38 <PharosAlexandria>	do you folks know the open source/free culture community in the UK?
Dec 01 20:51:47 <cfp>	thanks for volunteering to sort this AndrewRT
Dec 01 20:52:01 <AndrewRT>	no problem!
Dec 01 20:52:04 <PharosAlexandria>	like if you have a Creative Commons affiliate or something
Dec 01 20:52:05 <cfp>	the mailing list probably does better than we do
Dec 01 20:52:19 <PharosAlexandria>	OK
Dec 01 20:52:23 <cfp>	but we can certainly promote it in the newsletter etc
Dec 01 20:52:31 <AndrewRT>	I'll put a post on the mailing list asking for contacts we can approach
Dec 01 20:52:36 <PharosAlexandria>	I saw you mentioned something about prizes
Dec 01 20:52:46 <Warofdreams>	there are some useful contact points, where we could circulate info
Dec 01 20:52:54 <AndrewRT>	yeah idea i had - just something nominal value
Dec 01 20:53:01 <AndrewRT>	to put on the mantelpeice!
Dec 01 20:53:04 <PharosAlexandria>	if you want to give a prize yourself, you can probably get a company to donate books
Dec 01 20:53:13 <PharosAlexandria>	ah, real-life barnstars!
Dec 01 20:53:19 <AndrewRT>	indeed!
Dec 01 20:53:29 <PharosAlexandria>	great, we used those too :)
Dec 01 20:53:41 <PharosAlexandria>	thanks to Kat Walsh :)
Dec 01 20:53:49 <PharosAlexandria>	O
Dec 01 20:54:14 <PharosAlexandria>	O'Reilly also donated free books as prizes, if you want to try a publisher like that
Dec 01 20:54:33 <PharosAlexandria>	also, you might consider contacting photography clubs for publicity
Dec 01 20:54:41 <AndrewRT>	good idea
Dec 01 20:54:42 <PharosAlexandria>	but, clear it with the museum first
Dec 01 20:55:38 <PharosAlexandria>	my other thing is I wanted to give requested articles as prizes
Dec 01 20:55:50 <PharosAlexandria>	like, art articles
Dec 01 20:56:07 <AndrewRT>	how woudl that work?
Dec 01 20:56:14 <PharosAlexandria>	details are on the flickr page...
Dec 01 20:56:26 <Warofdreams>	that does sound a nice idea, provided you can find editors with the knowledge to put something nice together
Dec 01 20:56:27 <AndrewRT>	ok I'll have a look
Dec 01 20:56:34 <mpeel>	"Prize from Wikipedia: Pick your favorite pre-20th Century artist (or better yet, your Valentine's favorite), and, if you're a winner, we'll create or expand a Wikipedia article on one of their artworks. There are many Wikipedia articles on artworks by great artists that remain to be written."
Dec 01 20:56:39 <PharosAlexandria>	if they "win", we improve an article
Dec 01 20:56:49 <PharosAlexandria>	on an artwork from an artist they love
Dec 01 20:57:00 <Warofdreams>	any reason why pre-20th century?
Dec 01 20:57:01 <AndrewRT>	hmm that's an interesting idea
Dec 01 20:57:09 <AndrewRT>	have to make sure we can deliver though!
Dec 01 20:57:09 <PharosAlexandria>	like make it a weekly collaboration
Dec 01 20:57:16 <PharosAlexandria>	yeah :)
Dec 01 20:57:30 <PharosAlexandria>	just so they don't pick themselves or their friends :)
Dec 01 20:57:45 <PharosAlexandria>	that could get messy...
Dec 01 20:58:08 <Warofdreams>	cue them picking their great-grandparent ;)
Dec 01 20:58:14 <PharosAlexandria>	ha!
Dec 01 20:58:22 <PharosAlexandria>	I was thinking about tying it to Featured Pics too
Dec 01 20:58:32 <mpeel>	perhaps say "favourite famous artist" rather than pre-20th Century?
Dec 01 20:58:43 <PharosAlexandria>	but that would be another level of complication of course
Dec 01 20:59:01 <PharosAlexandria>	yeah, I was thinking maybe "historical artist"
Dec 01 20:59:12 <PharosAlexandria>	as in, no longer living
Dec 01 20:59:32 <PharosAlexandria>	"famous" is somewhat ambiguous, could be a  marginal person
Dec 01 20:59:32 <AndrewRT>	as in dead then?
Dec 01 20:59:41 <PharosAlexandria>	yeah
Dec 01 20:59:41 <AndrewRT>	...teh dead artists society...
Dec 01 20:59:47 <PharosAlexandria>	:)
Dec 01 20:59:47 <AndrewRT>	:)
Dec 01 21:00:24 <mpeel>	you could possibly tie it to the pictures that are photographed, rather than saying any artwork/artist.
Dec 01 21:00:25 <AndrewRT>	well thats given us a few ideas to progress - is there anything else we need to do this end?
Dec 01 21:01:03 <PharosAlexandria>	just get talking with them
Dec 01 21:01:08 <PharosAlexandria>	see how you can help
Dec 01 21:01:17 <PharosAlexandria>	they probably havea lot of questions
Dec 01 21:01:20 <AndrewRT>	ok - I'll keep you in the loop
Dec 01 21:01:23 <Warofdreams>	thanks for coming to the meeting, this is all much clearer to me now
Dec 01 21:01:36 <AndrewRT>	yes - it's been a big help
Dec 01 21:01:37 <KTC>	thank you pharos :)
Dec 01 21:01:48 <AndrewRT>	you can only do so much on talk pages!
Dec 01 21:02:20 <PharosAlexandria>	Andrew, this is true :)
Dec 01 21:02:50 <KTC>	shall we move on then?
Dec 01 21:02:56 <AndrewRT>	ok
Dec 01 21:03:01 <AndrewRT>	Election Rules is me
Dec 01 21:03:04 *	schiste ( has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 21:03:15 <AndrewRT>	I've put some drafts up on the wiki
Dec 01 21:03:20 *	ChanServ removes voice from PharosAlexandria
Dec 01 21:03:29 <AndrewRT>	started some discussions on the list
Dec 01 21:03:50 <AndrewRT>	I dont think we need discuss it in too much depth here until we're closer to the time
Dec 01 21:04:04 <AndrewRT>	but please coudl everyone contrbute to the meta/list discussions in the meantime
Dec 01 21:04:24 <cfp>	i hadn't noticed your on wiki draft.
Dec 01 21:04:49 <AndrewRT>	at
Dec 01 21:04:58 <AndrewRT>	can i suggest we come back to it at the next meeting?
Dec 01 21:05:10 <KTC>	sure
Dec 01 21:05:41 <AndrewRT>	give everyone time to throw the issues around
Dec 01 21:06:23 <Warofdreams>	great
Dec 01 21:06:27 <KTC>	5. i persume no one is proposing any resolutions?
Dec 01 21:06:34 <AndrewRT>	dont think so
Dec 01 21:06:51 <AndrewRT>	do we need this as a regular agenda item?
Dec 01 21:06:55 <cfp>	(that on wiki draft looks pretty reasonable btw AndrewRT)
Dec 01 21:06:59 <Warofdreams>	there are none on meta
Dec 01 21:07:05 <AndrewRT>	cheers cfp
Dec 01 21:07:37 <Warofdreams>	I'm not sure that we do need this as a regular item
Dec 01 21:07:39 <KTC>	AndrewRT, it's on the agenda as there was a red link to it on the board meeting page, i wanted to ask just in case anyone want to have something
Dec 01 21:08:04 <Warofdreams>	we shouldn't get many resolutions, and when there is one, there should be plenty of notice so it can go on the agenda then
Dec 01 21:08:17 <AndrewRT>	oh sorry that was me because I needed somewhere to put the Secs report!
Dec 01 21:08:30 <KTC>	no probs :)
Dec 01 21:08:38 <KTC>	Treasurer's Report
Dec 01 21:09:00 <cfp>	nowt to report
Dec 01 21:09:09 <KTC>	Secretary's Report then
Dec 01 21:09:11 <KTC>
Dec 01 21:09:18 <AndrewRT>	very brief
Dec 01 21:09:24 <AndrewRT>	just for the record - nothing interesting
Dec 01 21:09:34 <KTC>	floors ? what was that one about :D
Dec 01 21:09:45 <mpeel>	do we really need counts of spam letters posted to the company?
Dec 01 21:09:48 <Warofdreams>	time to invest in a floor?
Dec 01 21:09:49 <AndrewRT>	dont know - maybe someone's idea of humour?
Dec 01 21:09:57 <AndrewRT>	probably not
Dec 01 21:10:17 <Warofdreams>	we could start building an office from the bottom up?
Dec 01 21:10:30 <AndrewRT>	its when people start writing real letters I want to report back
Dec 01 21:11:15 <AndrewRT>	should we move to membership?
Dec 01 21:11:17 <KTC>	right. 8. membership then
Dec 01 21:11:27 <mpeel>	I've received a total of 3 application forms now.
Dec 01 21:11:41 <mpeel>	One query I had was, can we approve these now, to be accepted once payment has come through?
Dec 01 21:11:44 <AndrewRT>	how many from board members?
Dec 01 21:11:49 <mpeel>	0...
Dec 01 21:11:53 <AndrewRT>	oh dear!!
Dec 01 21:11:57 <AndrewRT>	not even yourself??
Dec 01 21:12:03 <mpeel>	but we're already members, so we don't need to apply...
Dec 01 21:12:07 <KTC>	um, why do we need to apply to become member of a company we're already members ?
Dec 01 21:12:14 <mpeel>	although we are all overdue with our fees...
Dec 01 21:12:20 <AndrewRT>	yes we are, but we still need to send a cheque in
Dec 01 21:12:32 <AndrewRT>	i was planning to just fill the form in like anyone else
Dec 01 21:12:43 <AndrewRT>	(although hadn't got round to it)
Dec 01 21:12:52 <Warofdreams>	I was planning on sending a cheque as soon as the bank account is open
Dec 01 21:12:59 *	KTC point to what Warofdreams said
Dec 01 21:13:06 <cfp>	i wasn't aware we needed to fill the form in. i was giong t to make a bank transfer
Dec 01 21:13:09 <KTC>	or when we next meet up
Dec 01 21:13:15 <AndrewRT>	yeah i was planning to be lazy and do a bank transfer too
Dec 01 21:13:19 <KTC>	or what cfp said
Dec 01 21:13:29 <AndrewRT>	mpeel do you want forms from each of us?
Dec 01 21:13:30 <Warofdreams>	yes, if we meet in person soon, that would also work well
Dec 01 21:13:43 <mpeel>	I think the best approach would be to pay in our dues once we have a bank account - anything else is just excess bureaucracy.
Dec 01 21:14:43 <mpeel>	either that, or just deduct it from our expenses claims, and count that as paying it.
Dec 01 21:15:07 <Warofdreams>	it'd be clearer to have the money actually going in and out
Dec 01 21:15:15 <AndrewRT>	anyway - mpeel asked if we should accept members before we had a bank account
Dec 01 21:15:48 *	PharosAlexandria has quit (Client Quit)
Dec 01 21:15:56 <mpeel>	I've been trying to stress that we'd approve their applications, but not accept them.
Dec 01 21:15:57 <cfp>	i'd say no
Dec 01 21:16:03 <cfp>	there's no point
Dec 01 21:16:06 <mpeel>	the difference being that we'd accept them after we've received payment.
Dec 01 21:16:14 <cfp>	you shouldn't accept until the cheque clears
Dec 01 21:16:19 <AndrewRT>	Although I originally raised this I'm inclined to agree with cfp
Dec 01 21:16:21 <cfp>	however arsey that is
Dec 01 21:16:36 <AndrewRT>	there's always a risk of the bank account taking longer to open
Dec 01 21:16:42 <AndrewRT>	better off just being patient
Dec 01 21:16:58 <AndrewRT>	if everyone agrees?
Dec 01 21:17:12 <KTC>	i'm happy with waiting
Dec 01 21:17:17 <Warofdreams>	I agree that we should wait
Dec 01 21:17:24 <mpeel>	the benefit in approving them prior to the bank account being open, is that they wouldn't have to be approved after we have the bank account, so that I could pay the cheques in earlier.
Dec 01 21:17:51 <Warofdreams>	they shouldn't have to wait more than a week for a board meeting
Dec 01 21:18:09 <AndrewRT>	i take your point but i will only be a matter of days
Dec 01 21:18:25 <cfp>	oh right, well i slightly misunderstood what you meant by approve then.
Dec 01 21:19:09 <cfp>	as long as we're not communicating anything publically to the individual in question i'm happy to do it now.
Dec 01 21:19:12 <mpeel>	by "approve" I was meaning that we'd say that we would accept them after their fees have been put into the bank account
Dec 01 21:19:18 <AndrewRT>	well i guess it would be a bit cheeky to cash someone's cheque and then reject them!
Dec 01 21:19:42 <AndrewRT>	and we can always approve people subject to their cheques not bouncing
Dec 01 21:19:52 <mpeel>	This is actually part of a larger question, which is how the membership application processing works.
Dec 01 21:19:57 <cfp>	i'm still kind of assuming that anyone who fills the form in properly gets approved
Dec 01 21:19:57 <mpeel>	I've put a draft document at
Dec 01 21:20:10 <mpeel>	(I've put it there rather than on meta beacuse I'm not sure if we want it to be generally available)
Dec 01 21:20:21 <AndrewRT>	yes weren't we going to discuss this today?
Dec 01 21:20:33 <mpeel>	I would prefer it if we said yay/nay to each application in a board meeting
Dec 01 21:21:36 <AndrewRT>	i think the "nay" process has to be slightly different - we have to give people an opportunity to make representations before they are declined
Dec 01 21:21:41 <cfp>	certainly don't send text messages...
Dec 01 21:21:44 <AndrewRT>	as far as i understand
Dec 01 21:22:07 <Warofdreams>	yes, I think that we should say yay/nay in a board meeting.  However, most will just need a cursory inspection, so we should be able to approve a list, then discuss any with queries
Dec 01 21:22:07 <mpeel>	by "text" I don't mean via phone.
Dec 01 21:22:27 <AndrewRT>	I agree with WarofDreams
Dec 01 21:22:42 <mpeel>	"text tbd" = I need to draft a standard letter for this.
Dec 01 21:23:11 <mpeel>	Warofdreams' suggestion seems sensible to me.
Dec 01 21:23:30 <AndrewRT>	I would like the MemSec to actually propose yes or no
Dec 01 21:23:34 <cfp>	ahha. misunderstood
Dec 01 21:23:47 <AndrewRT>	cfp: i thought that too - text = text message?
Dec 01 21:24:26 <AndrewRT>	Ask the Mem Sec to check before, e..g that the applicant hadn't been rejected before
Dec 01 21:24:28 <cfp>	yes i'm happy for the membership secretary to only bring the proposed nos to our attention
Dec 01 21:24:54 <mpeel>	I'd rather at least give a list of applications that I think we should say yes to.
Dec 01 21:25:07 <mpeel>	just in case I miss anything obvious.
Dec 01 21:25:15 <AndrewRT>	i think it might be a good idea to agree the yeses formally
Dec 01 21:25:15 <Warofdreams>	yes, that was what I was thinking of
Dec 01 21:25:29 <mpeel>	e.g. someone submits an application with a name that's an anagram of "just a joke".
Dec 01 21:25:40 <AndrewRT>	but i would expect the board to rely on the Mem Sec to bring up anything relevant
Dec 01 21:25:41 <mpeel>	and I don't catch it.
Dec 01 21:25:48 <AndrewRT>	mpeel: with a cheque enclosed?
Dec 01 21:26:03 <mpeel>	point - I suppose the joke would be on them in that case.
Dec 01 21:26:15 <AndrewRT>	unless it bounced of course!
Dec 01 21:26:47 <cfp>	well they're not a member until the cheque clears
Dec 01 21:26:47 <AndrewRT>	btw you say "Record the date of receipt, and whether payment was enclose"
Dec 01 21:27:01 <cfp>	so we don't need to be too vigilant.
Dec 01 21:27:10 <AndrewRT>	presumably if no payment is enclosed you would just write back?
Dec 01 21:27:31 <mpeel>	generally yes, I guess.
Dec 01 21:28:02 <AndrewRT>	ok that's fine
Dec 01 21:28:03 <mpeel>	the first application form I received actually doesn't have a cheque in it, but does have a note saying that a cheque will be sent when we let them know that we have a bank account.
Dec 01 21:28:24 <AndrewRT>	can I have a very brief word in camera?
Dec 01 21:28:31 <Warofdreams>	when I've taken memberships, I always contacted the applicant first with any queries, then if they weren't resolved, passed them on to the board to consider
Dec 01 21:28:40 <KTC>	oh okay AndrewRT 
Dec 01 21:28:43 <KTC>	sec
Dec 01 21:28:56 <AndrewRT>	sorry i cant invite people
Dec 01 21:31:21 <cfp>	hmm it's not letting me join the channel despite having been invited
Dec 01 21:31:38 <KTC>	try again
Dec 01 21:32:35 *	Dami_hun has quit (Client Quit)
Dec 01 21:33:30 <AndrewRT>	back in
Dec 01 21:33:44 <cfp>	in the long run i do think we need a slightly more streamlined process than going through individual names
Dec 01 21:34:13 <cfp>	but perhaps that can all be sorted post agm
Dec 01 21:34:14 <AndrewRT>	thanks for indulging me
Dec 01 21:34:46 <AndrewRT>	cfp - I agree, a block yes except where further discussion needed
Dec 01 21:35:05 <KTC>	a block approval sure, but would still want a list of it
Dec 01 21:35:15 <mpeel>	we can sort out streamlining once we have something to streamline...
Dec 01 21:35:19 <KTC>	for people to pick any they want to discuss out
Dec 01 21:35:21 <AndrewRT>	yes indeed!
Dec 01 21:35:39 <KTC>	are we all happy on this item, or not?
Dec 01 21:35:50 <AndrewRT>	i am
Dec 01 21:35:54 <mpeel>	are we happy with the proposed method?
Dec 01 21:36:07 <AndrewRT>	yes, bar the change I suggested with teh "nay"s
Dec 01 21:36:20 <mpeel>	and do we want it and the draft letters putting on meta, or left online?
Dec 01 21:36:21 <Warofdreams>	yes, I am
Dec 01 21:36:29 <mpeel>	* left online = left offline
Dec 01 21:36:42 <AndrewRT>	draft letters offline i think
Dec 01 21:36:45 <cfp>	yeah i think so. in light of that shall we do what mpeel originally suggested and go through the applications received so far?
Dec 01 21:36:48 <KTC>	AndrewRT, go through that changes again
Dec 01 21:36:50 <cfp>	i presume it'd be done in camera?
Dec 01 21:37:10 <AndrewRT>	the change for the "nay" is:
Dec 01 21:37:13 <Warofdreams>	oh, I don't know if you want to note it, but I'd suggest contacting applicants with any obvious queries before bringing the applications to board meetings
Dec 01 21:37:16 <cfp>	no one wants the embarassment of it being publically revealed that their cheque bounced.
Dec 01 21:37:30 <AndrewRT>	we have to give people notice and hear their representations BEFORE we decide to reject them
Dec 01 21:37:36 <Warofdreams>	obvious queries such as not having signed the declaration, not having paid, etc
Dec 01 21:37:40 <AndrewRT>	so i see it like this
Dec 01 21:37:43 <AndrewRT>	a)person replies
Dec 01 21:37:48 <mpeel>	cfp: yes, consideration of membership applications should be done in camera.
Dec 01 21:37:59 <AndrewRT>	a) person applies
Dec 01 21:38:07 <AndrewRT>	b) Board raises objection
Dec 01 21:38:14 <AndrewRT>	c) mpeel writes to applicant
Dec 01 21:38:26 <AndrewRT>	d) applicant comes to board, says his peice (if he wants to)
Dec 01 21:38:35 <AndrewRT>	e) Board votes to refuse
Dec 01 21:38:48 <AndrewRT>	(c) to (e) has to be 21? days
Dec 01 21:39:03 <AndrewRT>	e) refuse or not, I should say
Dec 01 21:39:47 <AndrewRT>	having said all that and looked at the Articles, I'm not sure now
Dec 01 21:39:54 <mpeel>	do we give a length of time in the AoA that we wait for a response from the applicant?
Dec 01 21:40:00 <mpeel>	b-c must be within 21 days
Dec 01 21:40:04 <KTC>	2.3(a) The Directors may only refuse an application for membership if, acting reasonably and properly, they consider it to be in the best interests of the charity to refuse the application.
Dec 01 21:40:04 <KTC>	2.3(b) The Directors must inform the applicant in writing of the reasons for the refusal within twenty-one days of the decision.
Dec 01 21:40:04 <KTC>	2.3(c) The Directors must consider any written representations the applicant may make about the decision. The Directors' decision following any written representations 
Dec 01 21:40:15 <KTC>	must be notified to the applicant in writing but shall be final.
Dec 01 21:40:44 <AndrewRT>	yeah ok scrap what i just said, I'm confusing it with terminations
Dec 01 21:40:46 <KTC>	if we want to ask questions before we come to a decsion sure
Dec 01 21:40:50 <mpeel>	I think we can refuse membership straight off, so long as we reconsider it if the member makes a written representation.
Dec 01 21:40:51 <AndrewRT>	mpeel was right to start with
Dec 01 21:41:05 <AndrewRT>	yeah you're right
Dec 01 21:41:05 <KTC>	but they can still ask us to reconsider even after we initially refuse
Dec 01 21:41:35 <AndrewRT>	yes, and then we must reconsider and either continue to refuse or decide to accept
Dec 01 21:41:46 <KTC>	*nod*
Dec 01 21:41:49 <mpeel>	ok
Dec 01 21:42:02 <KTC>	there's actually nothing in there to say someone can't reapply after we refuse AFAIK
Dec 01 21:42:09 <mpeel>	I'll put a more thorough outline of the process onto meta later this week, then.
Dec 01 21:42:18 <AndrewRT>	cheers thanks
Dec 01 21:42:20 <mpeel>	(Warofdreams: please action me on that)
Dec 01 21:42:20 <KTC>	right, back to shall we approve now
Dec 01 21:42:27 <Warofdreams>	will do
Dec 01 21:42:28 <AndrewRT>	will this be in the membership rules?
Dec 01 21:42:32 <mpeel>	yes
Dec 01 21:42:33 <AndrewRT>	or elsewhere?
Dec 01 21:42:35 <AndrewRT>	ok
Dec 01 21:42:37 <mpeel>	well, membership guidelines
Dec 01 21:42:52 <AndrewRT>	hmm
Dec 01 21:42:52 <mpeel>	am still not sure we want to call them rules
Dec 01 21:43:06 <AndrewRT>	depends if we adopt them as Rules or not
Dec 01 21:43:12 <Warofdreams>	membership procedure?
Dec 01 21:44:06 <AndrewRT>	well, are they Rules in the sense of Article 28 rules?
Dec 01 21:44:12 <AndrewRT>
Dec 01 21:44:16 <mpeel>	as it stands, it's more general information about the application process.
Dec 01 21:44:25 <mpeel>	meaning the page at
Dec 01 21:44:45 <mpeel>	we may want to create a set of rules based off that page, but it would need to be rewritten to serve as that.
Dec 01 21:44:55 <AndrewRT>	How foxed do we want them to be?
Dec 01 21:44:58 <AndrewRT>	_fixed_
Dec 01 21:45:28 <mpeel>	some things, e.g. "Membership is not transferable", should be fixed.
Dec 01 21:45:37 <mpeel>	others, like "This fee is reconsidered at each AGM.", may want to be flexible.
Dec 01 21:45:58 <AndrewRT>	i think the criteria for rejecting/accepting members should be fixed
Dec 01 21:46:06 <mpeel>	Things like "We have recently applied to register for Gift Aid and will keep this updated when we hear back." definitely shouldn't be in the rules.
Dec 01 21:46:29 <AndrewRT>	ok, asking the question another way, should we have some Membership Rules?
Dec 01 21:46:50 <mpeel>	yes: I think that would be a good idea.
Dec 01 21:47:01 <AndrewRT>	i.e. fixed text that is formally agreed by the Board
Dec 01 21:47:10 <AndrewRT>	(and subject to amendment by the Board)
Dec 01 21:47:44 <mpeel>	Shall I split the current page into two, and start creating a set of rules for discussion/approval at the AGM?
Dec 01 21:47:55 <cfp>	sounds sensible.
Dec 01 21:48:06 <KTC>	`discussion at a later board meeting 
Dec 01 21:48:09 <Warofdreams>	yes, a set of rules and some less formal guidelines
Dec 01 21:48:09 <KTC>	but sure
Dec 01 21:48:21 <mpeel>	ok; I'll start doing that this week, to be discussed in the future.
Dec 01 21:48:52 <KTC>	seeing as we're not in any hurry, shall we come back to those applications we've received another week ?
Dec 01 21:48:59 <mpeel>	ok
Dec 01 21:49:02 <AndrewRT>	I suggest yes
Dec 01 21:49:07 <Warofdreams>	yes
Dec 01 21:49:21 <mpeel>	The last thing under membership was paypal, I think.
Dec 01 21:49:34 <mpeel>	in terms of receiving membership fees by it.
Dec 01 21:49:40 <AndrewRT>	yes?
Dec 01 21:49:46 <AndrewRT>	is it feasible?
Dec 01 21:49:51 <mpeel>	it looks to be.
Dec 01 21:49:56 <mpeel>	Would need a Business account. No setup fees, or monthly fees. Would probably request payments by email upon receipt of application form.
Dec 01 21:50:00 <mpeel>	Fees are 3.4% + 0.20p to receive payments. So on £12 membership fee, sender would have to give £12.63. For £6 fee, sender would have to give £6.42.
Dec 01 21:50:03 <mpeel>	Withdrawal fee to bank account is 25p if withdrawing under £50, free otherwise.
Dec 01 21:50:16 <AndrewRT>	presumably we have a business account?
Dec 01 21:50:20 <AndrewRT>	or will have?
Dec 01 21:50:28 <mpeel>	you register for one on the paypal website
Dec 01 21:50:33 <mpeel>	it's a fairly trivial process, I believe.
Dec 01 21:50:37 <AndrewRT>	oh i c
Dec 01 21:50:42 <Warofdreams>	payments should soon mount up to over £50
Dec 01 21:50:50 <mpeel>	it's completely seperate from the bank account.
Dec 01 21:50:52 <Warofdreams>	so that's not really an issue
Dec 01 21:50:59 <mpeel>	although obviously you need a bank account if you want to withdraw money into it...
Dec 01 21:51:07 <cfp>	though it would mean money would be locked away until we could withdraw £50
Dec 01 21:51:24 <KTC>	we can withdraw below that
Dec 01 21:51:25 <mpeel>	it's not locked away; it just costs a very small sum.
Dec 01 21:51:28 <Warofdreams>	not really - if we really need to top up the bank account, we can always pay 25p
Dec 01 21:51:30 <KTC>	if we're happy to pay small fee
Dec 01 21:51:33 <cfp>	perhaps you should add on an additional 25p
Dec 01 21:51:49 <AndrewRT>	are we happy with the fees being added to the membership cost?
Dec 01 21:51:54 <cfp>	worst comes to the worst it's a mandatory extra donation for using paypal
Dec 01 21:52:27 <cfp>	i really think we should be minimising the amount of donations people choose to give through paypal
Dec 01 21:52:37 <mpeel>	unless we could convince paypal to waive the fees (which I doubt we could), then it should be fine.
Dec 01 21:52:37 <cfp>	and we should be passing over all costs to the bidder.
Dec 01 21:52:37 <Warofdreams>	definitely the 3.$% + 20p; I'm not concerned by the 25p either way
Dec 01 21:52:43 <Warofdreams>	*3.4%
Dec 01 21:52:50 <mpeel>	cfp: I think that most of the donations to the wikimedia foundation go through paypal.
Dec 01 21:53:06 <AndrewRT>	ok - why would anyone do this? They would have to print off the form anyway, so they could just as easily do a bank transfer
Dec 01 21:53:12 <Warofdreams>	cfp: any reason why you want to discourage PayPal?
Dec 01 21:53:13 <KTC>	i don't understand why we'd want to minimise it,
Dec 01 21:53:14 <AndrewRT>	and thereby save teh fees
Dec 01 21:53:20 <cfp>	because they could do a bank transfer
Dec 01 21:53:32 <mpeel>	using paypal is generally easier than doing a bank transfer
Dec 01 21:53:34 <Warofdreams>	Andrew: maybe they have a PayPal account with funds in it?
Dec 01 21:53:35 <mpeel>	it's also more rapid
Dec 01 21:53:43 <mpeel>	(or at least, it appears to the user as if it is)
Dec 01 21:53:53 <mpeel>	it's in common use thanks to eBay.
Dec 01 21:53:56 <cfp>	if its at £12.88 i'm happy to encourage paypal
Dec 01 21:54:08 <AndrewRT>	ok I suppose there's no harm in having the facility there
Dec 01 21:54:13 <cfp>	or perhaps round it up to £13
Dec 01 21:54:19 <AndrewRT>	shall we ask mpeel to open an account?
Dec 01 21:54:31 <KTC>	i'm happy for it to be £13/£6.50
Dec 01 21:54:38 <cfp>	it should probably be done my me and you Andrew
Dec 01 21:54:39 <mpeel>	It's probably best if the treasurer opens the account.
Dec 01 21:54:42 <cfp>	i'm happy to do it
Dec 01 21:54:46 <AndrewRT>	oh ok
Dec 01 21:54:54 <AndrewRT>	i agree with £13/£6.5
Dec 01 21:54:54 <mpeel>	it's easy to give other people access to it as needed
Dec 01 21:54:59 <mpeel>	with features in place for limiting their access.
Dec 01 21:54:59 <cfp>	k
Dec 01 21:55:16 <AndrewRT>	silly q how do we know who's paid the money in?
Dec 01 21:55:23 <mpeel>	you see their name on the transfer.
Dec 01 21:55:26 <cfp>	statements
Dec 01 21:55:29 <AndrewRT>	ok
Dec 01 21:55:40 <AndrewRT>	action cfp then
Dec 01 21:55:44 <mpeel>	... although that's something I was a bit worried about in terms of putting cheques into the actual bank account...
Dec 01 21:55:50 <AndrewRT>	presumably amend the membership form once teh account is opened
Dec 01 21:55:58 <KTC>	mpeel ?
Dec 01 21:56:03 <AndrewRT>	huh mpeel?
Dec 01 21:56:30 <mpeel>	in my experience, bank statements don't show who the sender of the cheque you've cashed was from.
Dec 01 21:56:38 <AndrewRT>	for bank transfers you mean?
Dec 01 21:56:40 <Warofdreams>	keep a list with the paying in book
Dec 01 21:56:49 <mpeel>	so if I put in N cheques, and 1 bounces, I don't know how I'd be able to find out which one bounced.
Dec 01 21:56:51 <Warofdreams>	any that bounce will be returned to us
Dec 01 21:56:51 <cfp>	bank transfers do on my account
Dec 01 21:57:08 <KTC>	bounced cheque get returned to account holder
Dec 01 21:57:11 <cfp>	we'll see about the co-op, as i expect i'll be the first person to transfer in
Dec 01 21:57:12 <mpeel>	bank transfers do generally give a name, so I'm not too worrried about that.
Dec 01 21:57:12 <mpeel>	ok.
Dec 01 21:57:13 <AndrewRT>	yes, we need to get people to wriet a meaningful description in their transfer
Dec 01 21:57:36 <AndrewRT>	KTC: often the bank will retain the physical cheque
Dec 01 21:57:55 <Warofdreams>	Andrew: in my experience, the Co-op don't
Dec 01 21:58:19 <AndrewRT>	dont in the sense of they forward it to the account holder?
Dec 01 21:58:30 <KTC>	AndrewRT, i've had bank cheque returned for both business and personal account *shurg*
Dec 01 21:58:35 <Warofdreams>	Andrew: yes
Dec 01 21:58:43 <AndrewRT>	ok thats good then
Dec 01 21:58:48 <AndrewRT>	makes it easiest
Dec 01 21:58:58 <cfp>	well we'll have to be clear that all bank transfers should have the senders name and the date they put on the application form in the ref form
Dec 01 21:59:56 <mpeel>	thanks for clarifying the situation with bouncing cheques: I've never been in that situation yet, so wasn't sure what happened.
Dec 01 22:00:11 <cfp>	are we agreed on £13 / £6.50 paypal fees? full payers are paying a bit more than they ought to, and reductions are paying a bit less (conditional on us taking the money out immediately)
Dec 01 22:00:18 <mpeel>	back to paypal: if we have a paypal account set up, can we accept members prior to having a bank account?
Dec 01 22:00:31 <AndrewRT>	mpeel - it looks like it yes
Dec 01 22:00:50 <mpeel>	£12.75 and £6.50 might be better - it's closer to the actual fees we'd payp
Dec 01 22:00:52 <AndrewRT>	cfp: i think that's a good round amount
Dec 01 22:01:03 <KTC>	we can, do we want do ? 
Dec 01 22:01:09 <cfp>	providing account setup doesn't need a bank account. i kind of think it might do as they do that verification thing with taking money out of your account then putting it back in again
Dec 01 22:01:33 <mpeel>	my understanding was that the verification was only when setting up the bank account for use with paypal.
Dec 01 22:01:34 <AndrewRT>	£12 * 1.03% +0.20 = 12.56
Dec 01 22:01:37 <KTC>	mpeel, 13/6 has the advantages of half of full fees like normal
Dec 01 22:01:40 <cfp>	but i'll try to set up the account and see what happens
Dec 01 22:01:49 <KTC>	* 13/6.5
Dec 01 22:01:53 <cfp>	mpeel quoted £12.63 before
Dec 01 22:01:53 <mpeel>	values are £12.63 and £6.42
Dec 01 22:01:58 <cfp>	and i was adding on the 25p
Dec 01 22:02:17 <cfp>	we should assume that at least for the next while we'll need money pretty much instantly
Dec 01 22:02:17 <mpeel>	because the 3.4% applies to the total amount, not the amount minus the percentage.
Dec 01 22:02:34 <AndrewRT>	sorry 3.4%
Dec 01 22:02:38 <mpeel>	... or at least, that's how I understood it.
Dec 01 22:02:56 <AndrewRT>	£12 * 1.034% +0.20 = 12.608
Dec 01 22:02:57 <cfp>	and we need to set it up so we're guaranteed to not be worse up if someone donates via paypal, even if we do need the money instantly
Dec 01 22:03:35 <cfp>	hence £13. the other should really be more like £6.75
Dec 01 22:04:15 <AndrewRT>	sorry i c now: 12.63 * (1-3.4%) - 20p = 12.00
Dec 01 22:04:31 <KTC>	there :)
Dec 01 22:04:44 <mpeel>	the difference is due to paying the fee on the 42p fee.
Dec 01 22:05:03 <cfp>	for the next few months at least we're going to be living hand to mouth as a charity. and it will take us a fair while to raise £50 in our paypal account, by which time we will have lost a reasonable amount in hypothetical interest
Dec 01 22:05:48 <KTC>	okay, let's acutally get a move on and decide things
Dec 01 22:06:00 <KTC>	proposal : we open a paypal account, yes/no ?
Dec 01 22:06:06 <AndrewRT>	12.89 * (1-3.4%) - 20p - 25p = 12.00
Dec 01 22:06:06 <cfp>	yes
Dec 01 22:06:11 <AndrewRT>	yes
Dec 01 22:06:15 <mpeel>	yes
Dec 01 22:06:43 <Warofdreams>	yes
Dec 01 22:06:56 <KTC>	proposal : the fee to charge membership over paypal - A) £13/6 B) some other
Dec 01 22:07:03 <KTC>	sec
Dec 01 22:07:03 <cfp>	so i'd prefer £13 / £6.75 in fees, with £13 / £6.50 if you're determined on something lower
Dec 01 22:07:07 <mpeel>	I think we'd be better off asking for £12.75 and £6.50, with additional donations on top. But I won't argue about an extra 25p on top.
Dec 01 22:07:08 <KTC>	A) £13/6.50
Dec 01 22:07:22 <KTC>	B) £13/6.75
Dec 01 22:07:24 <KTC>	C) others
Dec 01 22:07:38 <cfp>	B,A,C
Dec 01 22:07:43 <cfp>	(prefs)
Dec 01 22:07:51 <AndrewRT>	B, A, C for me too
Dec 01 22:08:28 <Warofdreams>	A, B, C
Dec 01 22:08:29 <mpeel>	I don't mind between a and b, and don't understand c.
Dec 01 22:08:53 <AndrewRT>	I think C) just means anything else?
Dec 01 22:08:53 <KTC>	C = some other amount that's not A or B
Dec 01 22:09:06 <cfp>	ktc you have the deciding vote
Dec 01 22:09:38 <mpeel>	OK: I guess C, A, B, then.
Dec 01 22:09:56 <cfp>	to reiterate the argument for b: we must assume the worst that we'll need the money instantly, or that we won't get many paypal donations, in which case B is the only one that covers costs
Dec 01 22:10:03 <KTC>	what amount were you thinking mpeel ?
Dec 01 22:10:15 <mpeel>	"I think we'd be better off asking for £12.75 and £6.50, with additional donations on top. But I won't argue about an extra 25p on top."
Dec 01 22:10:48 <mpeel>	the counter-arguement to cfp is that we'll have plenty of applications and donations, so the 25p should never be an issue.
Dec 01 22:11:13 <AndrewRT>	well the 25p will be split between a number of subscriptions
Dec 01 22:11:43 <cfp>	run the vote again with mpeel's as the new C?
Dec 01 22:11:52 <KTC>	if we withdraw instantly, £13 pays too much, and £6.50 not enough, whereas £13/£6.75 both pays too much
Dec 01 22:11:55 <AndrewRT>	i'm not sure we should be spending too much time on this - its only 25p
Dec 01 22:12:03 <mpeel>	if we withdraw over £50, then there is no 25p..
Dec 01 22:12:11 <cfp>	we won't be.
Dec 01 22:12:13 <KTC>	i just like the symmetric behind 6.50 being half of full fee like normal
Dec 01 22:12:16 <KTC>	*shrug*
Dec 01 22:12:22 <mpeel>	If we withdraw under that, I'll personally pay the 25p if you all want.
Dec 01 22:12:58 <KTC>	are we all willing to live with A ?
Dec 01 22:13:05 <cfp>	A) £12.75/6.50B) £13/6.50
Dec 01 22:13:05 <cfp>	C) £13/6.75
Dec 01 22:13:21 <KTC>	BCA
Dec 01 22:13:24 <cfp>	ranked in order of increasing amounts. (sorry about the B)
Dec 01 22:13:26 <cfp>	CBA
Dec 01 22:13:41 <Warofdreams>	BAC
Dec 01 22:13:59 <Warofdreams>	but I don't feel strongly about this
Dec 01 22:14:09 <mpeel>	ABC / DNC (Do Not Care)
Dec 01 22:14:20 <AndrewRT>	BCA
Dec 01 22:14:27 <AndrewRT>	i think the Bs have it!
Dec 01 22:14:50 <KTC>	£13/6.50 it is then
Dec 01 22:14:55 <KTC>	anything else on this?
Dec 01 22:14:55 <cfp>	yup
Dec 01 22:14:58 <mpeel>	ok
Dec 01 22:14:58 <cfp>	nope
Dec 01 22:15:02 <mpeel>	BTW: I'd suggest we set the address for paypals to be "", which would need to be set up by the current domain name manager...
Dec 01 22:15:13 <KTC>	ok
Dec 01 22:15:17 <Warofdreams>	that would be good
Dec 01 22:15:19 <AndrewRT>	presume we can do this?
Dec 01 22:15:24 <KTC>	atm?
Dec 01 22:15:26 <KTC>	we can ask
Dec 01 22:15:35 <mpeel>	should be easy - just set it as a forwarder to
Dec 01 22:15:40 <KTC>	unless someone taken control without me knowing
Dec 01 22:16:01 <AndrewRT>	ok
Dec 01 22:16:02 <KTC>	9. Timetable Review ?
Dec 01 22:16:22 <AndrewRT>	we're still waiting for bank account and HMRC
Dec 01 22:16:36 <AndrewRT>	should we just leave as is for now?
Dec 01 22:16:44 <Warofdreams>	not much point in changing anything until we receive those things
Dec 01 22:16:55 <KTC>	AGM location then ?
Dec 01 22:16:58 <mpeel>	Do we want to "Begin accepting donations" with the setup of paypal?
Dec 01 22:17:04 *	KTC go back
Dec 01 22:17:16 <AndrewRT>	possibly, shall we wait to see how long that takes?
Dec 01 22:17:59 <mpeel>	are we just going to set up paypal in the next week, then, and discuss what to do with it at the next AGM?
Dec 01 22:18:08 <mpeel>	(e.g. revise application form, let current applicants know, etc.)
Dec 01 22:18:43 <cfp>	we should hopefully have heard back from both the coop hmrc and paypal by then
Dec 01 22:18:45 <AndrewRT>	I suggest we revise the application form as soon as paypal is up and running
Dec 01 22:18:49 <cfp>	so we'll be in a better position
Dec 01 22:18:57 <Warofdreams>	I agree with Andrew
Dec 01 22:19:24 <AndrewRT>	KTC?
Dec 01 22:19:59 <KTC>	what you said sounds good :)
Dec 01 22:20:07 <mpeel>	one thing I forgot to mention is that there are several different methods of receiving money through paypal...
Dec 01 22:20:10 <AndrewRT>	ok - discuss next time then?
Dec 01 22:20:13 <cfp>	?
Dec 01 22:20:17 <mpeel>	you have to say which one you want when you set it up.
Dec 01 22:20:23 <KTC>	*nod* to AndrewRT, mpeel ?
Dec 01 22:20:26 <cfp>	and what do i want?
Dec 01 22:20:46 <mpeel>	options are listed at
Dec 01 22:20:54 <mpeel>	my suggestion would be "	Email Payments"
Dec 01 22:21:03 <AndrewRT>	looking at it now
Dec 01 22:21:16 <mpeel>	which means that we request a payment for the membership fee by email.
Dec 01 22:21:47 <AndrewRT>	yeah that looks like the right one for us
Dec 01 22:21:52 <AndrewRT>	do u agree mpeel?
Dec 01 22:22:12 <AndrewRT>	just out of interest lwhats the 1.4>
Dec 01 22:22:27 <mpeel>	the fees vary depending on the amount transferred.
Dec 01 22:22:56 <mpeel>	sorry - the monthly "sales", not amount transferred.
Dec 01 22:23:02 <mpeel>	see
Dec 01 22:23:02 <cfp>	can they donate more than the amount we ask for with that one?
Dec 01 22:23:12 <cfp>	i don't think that's what's normally used for donations buttons
Dec 01 22:23:19 *	shimgray ( has joined #wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 22:23:44 <cfp>	the second one also doesn't require them to have a paypal account
Dec 01 22:23:48 <mpeel>	it's not the usual for donations buttons.
Dec 01 22:23:49 <AndrewRT>	oh i c, so the min is 1.4%, max 3.4%
Dec 01 22:24:10 <mpeel>	I think that we'd continue asking for them to put a donation amount on the application form, then send them a request for the complete amount.
Dec 01 22:24:56 <AndrewRT>	so do we need to wait until we have a website?
Dec 01 22:25:04 <AndrewRT>	so we can do WP Standard
Dec 01 22:25:13 <mpeel>	hmm: apparently they do "Charity Pricing ", which might be worth investigating.
Dec 01 22:25:42 <cfp>	ahhh yes i will
Dec 01 22:25:48 <AndrewRT>	rather than doing this now, coudl cfp/mpeel look into this?
Dec 01 22:25:51 <Warofdreams>	can I suggest that someone takes an action to research this and come back with a proposal to the next meeting?
Dec 01 22:26:08 <AndrewRT>	yes i second WarofDreams
Dec 01 22:26:16 <mpeel>	ok. It does seem like there's more to this than I originally thought.
Dec 01 22:26:32 <mpeel>	joint action on me and cfp?
Dec 01 22:26:36 <KTC>	*nod*
Dec 01 22:26:51 <Warofdreams>	great.  I'll minute that.
Dec 01 22:26:59 <KTC>	10. AGM Location ?
Dec 01 22:27:31 <cfp>	k
Dec 01 22:27:32 <Warofdreams>	there's been a lively discussion on the mailing list
Dec 01 22:27:34 <AndrewRT>	Following the discussion at teh board I raised this on teh email list
Dec 01 22:27:59 <AndrewRT>	there's no need to finalise this before we finalise the date
Dec 01 22:27:59 <cfp>	there's also google checkout who provide a similar service which we should maybe investigate to see if it's cheaper
Dec 01 22:28:09 <Warofdreams>	London, Oxford, Birmingham and Manchester are the places which have come up
Dec 01 22:28:15 <AndrewRT>	whihc cant be done until the bank accoutn is open
Dec 01 22:28:33 <AndrewRT>	i suggest we continue discussing on email and bring back to the board then?
Dec 01 22:28:39 <Warofdreams>	And there are suggestions that we might be able to get a free room in Manchester, or, as previously discussed, in Oxford
Dec 01 22:28:51 <Warofdreams>	I agree
Dec 01 22:28:56 <AndrewRT>	btw thanks to cfp for him initiative of doing a map - very informative
Dec 01 22:29:00 <KTC>	I propose we hold it at Sealand ;P (yes, delay :D)
Dec 01 22:29:27 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: was that cfp or Tango42?
Dec 01 22:29:35 <KTC>	i think Tango42 
Dec 01 22:29:45 <AndrewRT>	sorry was it Tango?
Dec 01 22:29:59 <AndrewRT>	oops
Dec 01 22:30:05 <AndrewRT>	thanks anyway
Dec 01 22:30:17 <Warofdreams>	Wikimania bid?
Dec 01 22:30:26 <mpeel>	Once we have more applications, then I should be able to get a feel for where is central for the members.
Dec 01 22:30:34 <KTC>	ok
Dec 01 22:30:36 <KTC>	bid it is
Dec 01 22:30:41 <AndrewRT>	anything to report?
Dec 01 22:30:54 <cfp>	well membership applications should be roughly a representative sample of the whole population distribution i'd guess
Dec 01 22:30:59 <mpeel>	I added this because I figured we should discuss it each time, but I hadn't actually got anything I wanted to mention here.
Dec 01 22:31:03 <cfp>	i've exchanged some emails with seddon
Dec 01 22:31:18 <Warofdreams>	I hope that we can develop the bid further in January
Dec 01 22:31:23 <cfp>	who seems to be pursuing a few things. not done anything on it myself though
Dec 01 22:31:47 <mpeel>	has there been any sign of a bid deadline yet?
Dec 01 22:32:19 <KTC>	it hasn't opened yet nvm closed
Dec 01 22:32:50 <AndrewRT>	last time i note it was Feb 3
Dec 01 22:34:03 <AndrewRT>	when should we start to focus on this?
Dec 01 22:34:05 <cfp>	that was a very preliminary timetable
Dec 01 22:34:16 <cfp>	i'll be focussing more once i'm home
Dec 01 22:34:23 <cfp>	i'm busy until at least the 17th
Dec 01 22:34:28 <KTC>	ok 
Dec 01 22:34:36 <KTC>	AOCB ?
Dec 01 22:34:42 <KTC>
Dec 01 22:34:51 <Warofdreams>	I also have an AOCB
Dec 01 22:34:52 <mpeel> is currently a rather confusing amalgamation of both WMUK1 and 2 - e.g. lists WMUK2 membership fees, but provides application forms for WMUK1, and the news section talks about a new board but fails to make clear what company this is for.
Dec 01 22:34:59 <mpeel>	My suggestion is that we request that the website is replaced by a one-page summary of the current situation.
Dec 01 22:35:04 <AndrewRT>	yes i agree - didn't like it at all
Dec 01 22:35:20 <AndrewRT>	presume it was put up there by WMUKv1 people
Dec 01 22:35:23 <KTC>	yes
Dec 01 22:35:26 <mpeel>	pending approval of WMUK2 as a chapter, at which point we should request a wiki either at that address or on a WMF server.
Dec 01 22:35:59 <mpeel>	... or are we in a position where we could request a wiki now?
Dec 01 22:36:34 <AndrewRT>	personally i think we should try to take it now
Dec 01 22:36:49 <AndrewRT>	given that we have ChapCom support
Dec 01 22:37:00 <Warofdreams>	it might work better than asking WMUK1 people to alter the website to our requirements
Dec 01 22:37:03 <AndrewRT>	no point in delaying things - it just confuses everyone
Dec 01 22:37:25 <KTC>	in that case, anyone want to volunteer asking James & Alison ?
Dec 01 22:37:32 <mpeel>	if we take control of the domain name, then we need to have at least temporary permission to use the trademark.
Dec 01 22:37:53 <mpeel>	whereas if we just had a wiki set up, then we wouldn't need to put "Wikimedia UK" anywhere until we had the proper permission.
Dec 01 22:37:59 <AndrewRT>	hmm yes i suppose that's true
Dec 01 22:38:33 <AndrewRT>	how would we request a wiki on a WMF server?
Dec 01 22:38:40 <AndrewRT>	what address would it have?
Dec 01 22:38:41 <KTC>	a website doesn't have to use Wikimedia UK
Dec 01 22:38:52 <KTC>	um not sure about that
Dec 01 22:39:24 <mpeel>	presumably
Dec 01 22:39:30 <mpeel>	based off
Dec 01 22:39:43 <mpeel>	not sure if that counts as using the trademark or not...
Dec 01 22:39:57 <mpeel>	being as is run by the WMF...
Dec 01 22:40:11 <mpeel>	sorry:
Dec 01 22:40:22 <AndrewRT>	i think it probably does
Dec 01 22:40:56 <mpeel>	this is probably something that ChapCom can clear up...
Dec 01 22:41:00 <AndrewRT>	ok shall we go back to mpeel's suggestion
Dec 01 22:41:11 <mpeel>	what was my suggestion?
Dec 01 22:41:15 <AndrewRT>	just ask them to replace with a one page summary of the situation
Dec 01 22:41:25 <mpeel>	ok. :)
Dec 01 22:41:32 <AndrewRT>	pending taking full ownership once WMF approves us
Dec 01 22:41:45 <AndrewRT>	the domain owner can only say no!
Dec 01 22:42:10 <KTC>	as i said again, anyone want to volunteer to ask Alison / James ?
Dec 01 22:42:36 <AndrewRT>	who would be responsible for the webiste once it's taken over?
Dec 01 22:43:07 <mpeel>	I could conceivably do it - I manage several domain names atm.
Dec 01 22:43:26 <mpeel>	so I guess I'll volunteer unless anyone else wants to do it.
Dec 01 22:43:32 *	KTC look at Warofdreams 
Dec 01 22:43:32 <AndrewRT>	sounds ideal!
Dec 01 22:43:45 <Warofdreams>	I can ask them
Dec 01 22:43:47 <AndrewRT>	would u mind doing that at the same time as Mem Sec though?
Dec 01 22:44:05 <mpeel>	Warofdreams: great, thanks.
Dec 01 22:44:14 <AndrewRT>	ok thx WarofDreams
Dec 01 22:44:30 <KTC>	the other AOCB?
Dec 01 22:44:32 <cfp>	one more thing on paypal: it seems google checkout has rather lower fees than paypal (1.5% + 15p, no fee for bank transfers out), might i suggest we give up on paypal all together?
Dec 01 22:44:43 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: managing a domain name is trivial. Most of the difficulty would be with the wiki, which would be set up by WMF probably and managed by us all.
Dec 01 22:44:58 <Warofdreams>	cfp: sounds worth looking in to
Dec 01 22:45:02 <KTC>	cfp, i wouldn't. it's not a case of who's cheapest
Dec 01 22:45:04 <Warofdreams>	My AOCB
Dec 01 22:45:13 <KTC>	more of which one people use most
Dec 01 22:45:30 <Warofdreams>	contact with  projects in various languages
Dec 01 22:45:33 <mpeel>	cfp: I'd rather we have a paypal account set up at some point, being as donations to WMF tend to go through it, so if we want to join in with their fundraising drives we'd probably need it.
Dec 01 22:45:36 <cfp>	well with either people just put in their credit card details, they don't have to be members
Dec 01 22:45:43 <cfp>	right.
Dec 01 22:45:54 <KTC>	Warofdreams ?
Dec 01 22:46:01 <Warofdreams>	I've passed messages on to cy, ga, gd, kw and sco
Dec 01 22:46:17 <KTC>	any response?
Dec 01 22:46:26 <mpeel>	which languages are those, for those of us that don't understand ISO acronyms?
Dec 01 22:46:27 <Warofdreams>	no response yet, but the projects are smaller and so we'll need to give it some time to see if there is interest
Dec 01 22:46:42 <Warofdreams>	Welsh, Irish Gaelic, Scottish Gaelic, Cornish and Scots
Dec 01 22:46:59 <AndrewRT>	any luck translating the newsletter?
Dec 01 22:47:14 <Warofdreams>	no responses yet, but I only sent the messages out this morning
Dec 01 22:47:34 <Warofdreams>	and given the low traffic on some of these projects, I'm not expecting quick responses
Dec 01 22:47:52 <AndrewRT>	thanks for doing this
Dec 01 22:48:01 <AndrewRT>	hopefully some will bite
Dec 01 22:48:08 <Warofdreams>	I'm hoping we might get some editors to feed in to the discussion which has happened on the mailing list
Dec 01 22:48:18 <AndrewRT>	well yes, that'd be interesting :)
Dec 01 22:48:20 <Warofdreams>	as to what structures, if any, we should put in place to support such projects
Dec 01 22:48:34 <Warofdreams>	and if there's no interest, that would feed in to the discussion, too.
Dec 01 22:49:10 <KTC>	yep
Dec 01 22:49:20 <KTC>	do we have anything else? or are we good ?
Dec 01 22:49:21 <Warofdreams>	incidentally, I've linked the pages on which I've left messages at the bottom of
Dec 01 22:49:38 <AndrewRT>	nothing from me
Dec 01 22:49:41 <Warofdreams>	so if anyone else wants to send out any messages or check for responses, please feel free
Dec 01 22:49:45 <Warofdreams>	nothing more from me
Dec 01 22:50:43 cfp ChanServ 
Dec 01 22:50:48 <KTC>	cfp , mpeel ?
Dec 01 22:50:57 <mpeel>	I have nothing more to raise.
Dec 01 22:50:57 <cfp>	nothing from me
Dec 01 22:51:04 <Warofdreams>	next meeting?
Dec 01 22:51:06 <KTC>	that's it for another week then :)
Dec 01 22:51:11 <KTC>	monday or tuesday ?
Dec 01 22:51:19 <mpeel>	either
Dec 01 22:51:20 <cfp>	is tuesday the 9th?
Dec 01 22:51:23 <Warofdreams>	either is fine with me
Dec 01 22:51:24 <AndrewRT>	do we need to meet next week or should we leave it till a fortnight?
Dec 01 22:51:26 <mpeel>	cfp: yup
Dec 01 22:51:28 <KTC>	yes
Dec 01 22:51:28 <cfp>	because i'm off to amsterdam on the ninth
Dec 01 22:51:40 <cfp>	so it's monday or me not being there. but i'm happy to produce a report
Dec 01 22:51:43 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: it would be best to continue meeting weekly
Dec 01 22:51:45 <cfp>	so it's up to you
Dec 01 22:51:55 <AndrewRT>	do we have enought to discuss?
Dec 01 22:52:04 <AndrewRT>	how long are you off for cfp?
Dec 01 22:52:08 <Warofdreams>	I'd like to meet next week, as my availability will get patchier in the run-up to Christmas
Dec 01 22:52:10 <cfp>	well hopefully if we don't things can go quickly
Dec 01 22:52:11 <cfp>	5 days
Dec 01 22:52:17 <mpeel>	AndrewRT: we always seem to have plenty to discuss.
Dec 01 22:52:21 <KTC>	next week, and then break over christmas
Dec 01 22:52:27 <KTC>	sound better i think AndrewRT 
Dec 01 22:52:35 <AndrewRT>	ok, next week then
Dec 01 22:52:38 <AndrewRT>	Monday is fine for me
Dec 01 22:52:41 <KTC>	monday then
Dec 01 22:52:49 <Warofdreams>	Andrew: if it's a short meeting, that's not a problem!
Dec 01 22:52:52 <mpeel>	KTC: I'd rather we didn't break for long over christmas...
Dec 01 22:53:02 <Warofdreams>	Monday at 20:30, then.
Dec 01 22:53:04 <AndrewRT>	That'll be the day! :)
Dec 01 22:53:05 <mpeel>	I'd be worried about losing momentum.
Dec 01 22:53:06 <KTC>	i meant we can skip a week here or there mpeel 
Dec 01 22:53:18 <KTC>	if people are busy appropaching xmas or newyear
Dec 01 22:53:20 <mpeel>	ok, thanks for the clarification.
Dec 01 22:53:22 <AndrewRT>	8th then 22nd?
Dec 01 22:53:43 <Warofdreams>	can we discuss future meetings at the next board meeting?
Dec 01 22:53:56 <KTC>	8th then we'll see on the 8th :)
Dec 01 22:53:57 <AndrewRT>	sure
Dec 01 22:54:02 <mpeel>	ok
Dec 01 22:54:04 <KTC>	bye bye *wave*
Dec 01 22:54:06 <Warofdreams>	excellent
Dec 01 22:54:07 <AndrewRT>	see u all then
Dec 01 22:54:09 <AndrewRT>	bye
Dec 01 22:54:10 <mpeel>	g'bye all
Dec 01 22:54:11 <cfp>	bye all
Dec 01 22:54:12 <cfp>	thanks
Dec 01 22:54:13 <Warofdreams>	for the logs, it's 22:55


Dec 01 20:26:25 *	Now talking on #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 20:26:25 *	Topic for #wikimedia-uk is: Discussion of Wikimedia UK | Discuss the Oxford Wikimania 2010 bid in #wikimania-oxford | The next Wikimedia UK board meeting is tonight at 8.30pm UTC in #wikimedia-uk-board | This channel will be publicly logged during board meetings
Dec 01 20:26:25 *	Topic for #wikimedia-uk set by mpeel at Mon Dec 01 19:41:20 2008
Dec 01 20:26:26 *	#wikimedia-uk :
Dec 01 20:26:33 <PharosAlexandria>	what about Vermont?
Dec 01 20:27:22 <cfp>	i think you can safely ignore any from outside GB
Dec 01 20:27:22 <Tango42>	someone in Vermont has put themselves on my new Wikimedia UK map
Dec 01 20:27:32 <Tango42>	cfp: yeah, I agree
Dec 01 20:27:55 <PharosAlexandria>	New England, eh?
Dec 01 20:28:03 <PharosAlexandria>	any from Nova Scotia?
Dec 01 20:28:18 <cfp>	hoho
Dec 01 20:28:53 <KTC>	hello everyone
Dec 01 20:30:22 <PharosAlexandria>	hello
Dec 01 20:30:36 <PharosAlexandria>	it starts about now, right?
Dec 01 20:30:43 <KTC>	*nod*
Dec 01 20:30:44 <mpeel>	yup
Dec 01 20:30:46 <KTC>	it just started
Dec 01 20:30:51 <mpeel>	thanks for coming, Pharos.
Dec 01 20:30:53 <KTC>	#wikimedia-uk-board
Dec 01 20:31:01 <PharosAlexandria>	ah, ok
Dec 01 20:32:32 *	schiste ( has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 20:42:14 <PharosAlexandria>	how do we deal with me not being able to post there?
Dec 01 20:42:31 <AndrewRT>	Pharos: we'll voice you when it comes to your bit!
Dec 01 20:42:42 <PharosAlexandria>	OK, I'll be patient :)
Dec 01 20:42:43 <Warofdreams>	feel free to comment in here on anything else
Dec 01 20:42:49 <KTC> <-- nearly there :)
Dec 01 20:43:02 <PharosAlexandria>	OK, my other spiel is this:
Dec 01 20:43:04 <AndrewRT>	cheers Pharos!
Dec 01 20:43:04 <Tango42>	Pharos has a bit? What bit's that?
Dec 01 20:43:15 <AndrewRT>	Wikipedia Loves Art
Dec 01 20:43:47 <PharosAlexandria>	maybe we could do a videoconference or audioconference between meetups in January
Dec 01 20:43:58 <PharosAlexandria>	but yeah, WLA is my primary bit
Dec 01 20:44:23 <Tango42>	that sounds clever and difficult to organise! (I've tried doing that with just family in different parts of the world, it never works!)
Dec 01 20:44:36 <Tango42>	it would be great, though, if we can do it
Dec 01 20:44:40 <PharosAlexandria>	audio wouldn't be that hard
Dec 01 20:44:49 <PharosAlexandria>	over skype
Dec 01 20:44:58 <PharosAlexandria>	ooh, gotta go!
Dec 01 20:45:17 <mpeel>	As someone who regularly does video conferences, getting video to work with more than 2 people in the conference is non-trivial...
Dec 01 20:45:45 <Tango42>	how many places are we planning?
Dec 01 20:46:07 <mpeel>	I should have said "cameras" rather than people, sorry.
Dec 01 20:46:30 <mpeel>	Skype can do two-way video easily, but can't do more than that.
Dec 01 20:46:33 <mpeel>	anything else tends to suck
Dec 01 20:48:08 <Tango42>	yeah, more than 2-way requires dedicated video conferencing software - something far more advanced than Skype. And then you need someone that actually knows how to use it at both ends.
Dec 01 20:54:28 <AndrewRT>	meeting is taking place in #wikimedia-uk-board if you want to listen
Dec 01 21:00:42 <PharosAlexandria>	2-way is fine with me
Dec 01 21:01:59 <PharosAlexandria>	just a London-NYC link for 10 minutes would be quite interesting
Dec 01 21:02:31 <KTC>	i'll set one up at 9am UK time ;P (that's like 4am NY)
Dec 01 21:02:57 <PharosAlexandria>	no, we can do afternoon, and you evening
Dec 01 21:03:08 <PharosAlexandria>	3 PM and *PM
Dec 01 21:03:11 <PharosAlexandria>	8PM
Dec 01 21:03:41 <PharosAlexandria>	you have my full attention now
Dec 01 21:03:53 <PharosAlexandria>	as I've been silenced :(
Dec 01 21:04:01 <PharosAlexandria>	ha! :)
Dec 01 21:04:18 <PharosAlexandria>	we have meetings in the afternoons anyway
Dec 01 21:04:21 <AndrewRT>	cheers Pharos!
Dec 01 21:04:47 <PharosAlexandria>	welcome to the proles section
Dec 01 21:05:01 <PharosAlexandria>	proles and foreigners, that is :)
Dec 01 21:05:46 <PharosAlexandria>	so, you folks want that videoconference?
Dec 01 21:05:55 <PharosAlexandria>	you do Sunday evenings, right?
Dec 01 21:06:28 <mpeel>	is anyone actually here that goes to the wikimeets in london?
Dec 01 21:07:18 <Tango42>	I think the Sunday meetups are usually in the afternoon, although they can go on until quite late
Dec 01 21:07:31 <PharosAlexandria>	same here, actually
Dec 01 21:08:11 <Tango42>	1PM/6PM is probably more likely to work
Dec 01 21:09:16 <PharosAlexandria>	hmm... we'd have to do it a litt;e earlier than usual
Dec 01 21:09:20 <PharosAlexandria>	but not that much
Dec 01 21:09:58 <PharosAlexandria>	let me know when you folks schedule it
Dec 01 21:11:53 <Tango42>	you'll get more people on this end at 6 than at 8
Dec 01 21:13:51 <PharosAlexandria>	what about 7?
Dec 01 21:15:35 <PharosAlexandria>	OK, good evening folks
Dec 01 21:15:42 <PharosAlexandria>	gotta go :)
Dec 01 21:15:48 *	PharosAlexandria has quit (Client Quit)
Dec 01 21:27:21 <Tango42>	KTC: You know, it's the chair's job to give people a clip round the ear when they go off- topic! ;)
Dec 01 21:27:42 <AndrewRT>	are we off topic?
Dec 01 21:27:43 <KTC>	no no, we're on topic, memberships
Dec 01 21:28:12 <Tango42>	the finer details of what to do with joke memberships is hardly on topic...
Dec 01 21:29:39 <mpeel>	we only talked about that for a few lines, before we veered back onto topic.
Dec 01 21:29:42 <Tango42>	CABAL! CABAL!
Dec 01 21:29:46 *	J_Milburn has quit (No route to host)
Dec 01 21:30:02 <Tango42>	I know, I did include a ";)".
Dec 01 21:30:36 <Warofdreams>	just discussing the tricky problem of what to do with people who heckle the chair ;)
Dec 01 21:30:51 <AndrewRT>	hehe
Dec 01 21:30:51 <KTC>	:p
Dec 01 21:30:57 <Tango42>	Put them in the stocks and throw rotten tomatoes at them - it's the only way.
Dec 01 21:31:15 <KTC>	as long as i have a screen to stop any tomatoes coming back ;)
Dec 01 21:31:47 <Tango42>	Not the most competent of cabals, it seems... ;)
Dec 01 21:32:08 <KTC>	i invited before i did +i on the channel. oops
Dec 01 21:33:18 <Tango42>	I guess it's a good sign that you aren't more familiar with how to hold secret talks
Dec 01 21:33:40 <AndrewRT>	hehe
Dec 01 21:33:47 <AndrewRT>	thats oevr now
Dec 01 21:48:59 *	Majorly_ (n=Alex@wikimedia/Majorly) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 21:59:19 *	shimgray ( has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 22:02:05 *	J_Milburn ( has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 22:02:57 *	al_tally (n=Alex@wikimedia/Majorly) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 22:03:42 <Tango42>	As the maths student here, I can confirm mpeel's calcuations.
Dec 01 22:03:47 *	Majorly has quit (Nick collision from services.)
Dec 01 22:04:06 <KTC>	as the math/physics graudate here, i can't be bother to work out the few pences difference
Dec 01 22:06:54 <AndrewRT>	as teh accountant I'm struggling with the maths! :)
Dec 01 22:07:00 <Tango42>	:)
Dec 01 22:07:26 <Tango42>	accountants just add up columns of numbers - you don't do any real maths! ;)
Dec 01 22:07:45 <mpeel>	As the astronomer, I'm happy that I got it right to within a factor of 2. ;-)
Dec 01 22:07:55 <KTC>	:D
Dec 01 22:07:56 <AndrewRT>	hehe
Dec 01 22:08:21 <KTC>	it's in the right order of magnitude! ;D
Dec 01 22:08:29 <cfp>	as the economist i'm happy that i had the right sign
Dec 01 22:09:33 <Tango42>	As the abstract algebraist I prefer to do everything modulo 2, then you don't need to worry about signs because 1=-1
Dec 01 22:10:31 <cfp>	haha, you win.
Dec 01 22:13:49 <Tango42>	You know what I was saying about board meetings becoming more efficient since the governing docs were finished? I take it back... ;)
Dec 01 22:13:59 <KTC>	we were doing so well... :D
Dec 01 22:14:21 <cfp>	yeah yeah. this should be quick now
Dec 01 22:14:22 <cfp>	STV
Dec 01 22:15:17 <cfp>	democracy is fairly efficient
Dec 01 22:15:22 <Tango42>	B is the concordat winner!
Dec 01 22:15:41 <cfp>	yeah it's a win by any sensible criteria
Dec 01 22:15:47 <cfp>	holding a vote was quicker than arguing it out
Dec 01 22:16:06 <Tango42>	Any sensible criteria will choose a concordat winner if there is one
Dec 01 22:16:20 <KTC>	it's when there isn't that's a problem
Dec 01 22:16:37 <Tango42>	indeed, but that wasn't the case here, thankfully
Dec 01 22:16:39 <cfp>	STV doesn't always pick the condorcet winner
Dec 01 22:16:50 <cfp>	which is my chief gripe with it.
Dec 01 22:16:55 <Tango42>	well STV isn't sensible then ;)
Dec 01 22:17:12 <cfp>	and yet it's used for national elections around the world
Dec 01 22:17:16 <Tango42>	(I'm a mathematician, I'm always right be definition)
Dec 01 22:17:18 <cfp>	evidently someone thinks it is
Dec 01 22:17:30 <Tango42>	and most elections in my uni too
Dec 01 22:17:34 <cfp>	but yeah i agree with you on the supremacy of the condorcet method
Dec 01 22:17:43 <cfp>	(cluster of methods to be precise)
Dec 01 22:17:45 <KTC>	Tango42, ur uni with NUS?
Dec 01 22:18:00 <Tango42>	Yeah, we're a member of NUS
Dec 01 22:18:04 <KTC>	that would be why then ;)
Dec 01 22:18:14 <Tango42>	is it a requirement?
Dec 01 22:18:15 <KTC>	they heavily encourage (i think) 
Dec 01 22:18:22 <KTC>	i'm not sure whether it's a requirement
Dec 01 22:18:55 <Tango42>	I have no strong feelings on whether the condorcet method is best, but a method which chooses the condorcet method when there is one is good.
Dec 01 22:19:03 <Tango42>	*condorcet winner
Dec 01 22:19:27 <shimgray>	ugh, NUS elections
Dec 01 22:19:41 <shimgray>	they like the outward form of STV, they don't like thinking much about it
Dec 01 22:19:42 <cfp>	yeah, so "the condorcet method" is just "pick the condorcet winner if there's a unique one" otherwise do something to resolve ties or do something else
Dec 01 22:20:02 <cfp>	hence it being strictly a family of methods
Dec 01 22:20:25 <Tango42>	indeed
Dec 01 22:21:02 <Tango42>	what I love most about STV is when the returning officer reads out votes to 10 decimal places - that's always good for a laugh!
Dec 01 22:21:08 <KTC>	shimgray, NUS STV method scares me
Dec 01 22:21:23 <KTC>	good thing i don't have to work out winners in election using it (on paper!)
Dec 01 22:21:34 <KTC>	decimals transfer *eck*
Dec 01 22:21:37 <shimgray>	KTC: in a previous life, I had to run STV elections and fight NUS on a part-time basis. It was... exhilerating
Dec 01 22:21:53 <shimgray>	(paper counts are great fun! we ran for 18 hours once.)
Dec 01 22:23:08 <shimgray>	is the meeting still ongoing?
Dec 01 22:23:12 <KTC>	yep
Dec 01 22:23:16 <shimgray>	ahaha.
Dec 01 22:23:45 <Warofdreams>	I stood in an STV election at Sheffield Uni with around 6500 voters.  Fortunately, the counters had a computer and got through all the positions and referenda in around 3 hours
Dec 01 22:23:46 *	Majorly_ has quit (Connection timed out)
Dec 01 22:25:19 <Tango42>	yeah, it's all done by computer here - most of the voting is even done online
Dec 01 22:25:30 <shimgray>	Tango42: you're Durham, right?
Dec 01 22:25:35 <Tango42>	yep
Dec 01 22:25:42 <shimgray>	I implemented that system :-)
Dec 01 22:25:51 <Tango42>	the DSU online voting?
Dec 01 22:26:02 <shimgray>	(well, Melanie and Chris did, but I sort of made approving noises)
Dec 01 22:26:21 <shimgray>	ayup. 2003 was the trial run.
Dec 01 22:26:21 <Tango42>	when we this?
Dec 01 22:26:24 <Tango42>	*was
Dec 01 22:26:31 *	al_tally has quit (Connection timed out)
Dec 01 22:26:32 <Tango42>	ah, before my time, then
Dec 01 22:26:58 <shimgray>	yeah, you've had some weird electoral upheavals since then, as I hear.
Dec 01 22:29:07 <Tango42>	I just keep my head down... I don't remember anything particularly interesting happening with elections
Dec 01 22:29:30 <Tango42>	Lots of corrupt sabaticals, but that's nothing new
Dec 01 22:29:59 <KTC>	lol
Dec 01 22:30:02 <Tango42>	Board: 'twas I!
Dec 01 22:30:07 <Warofdreams>	thanks!
Dec 01 22:30:10 <shimgray>	mmm. Treasurers are usually pretty sharp, but hey
Dec 01 22:30:11 <AndrewRT>	sorry Tango
Dec 01 22:30:25 <AndrewRT>	I'm the secretary btw!
Dec 01 22:32:12 <Tango42>	it seems paypal's charity rates only apply to registered charities - they explicitly ask for a Charity Commission number (
Dec 01 22:32:12 <cfp>	tango is thomas on emails and i'm tom, that's the give away
Dec 01 22:32:52 <mpeel>	Tango42: I thought that might be the case. They seem to bury the option pretty well on their website...
Dec 01 22:33:02 <Tango42>	(I'm Tom IRL, though, so perhaps we should stick to psuedonyms at the AGM!)
Dec 01 22:33:18 <Tango42>	I used Google - a very efficient spade!
Dec 01 22:33:26 <KTC>	or we can just go old fashion and use last name ;)
Dec 01 22:33:44 <cfp>	that's a pain. google checkout doesn't have reductions for uk charities yet
Dec 01 22:33:45 *	Majorly (n=Alex@wikimedia/Majorly) has joined #wikimedia-uk
Dec 01 22:33:49 <cfp>	(though it seems to for us ones)
Dec 01 22:33:54 <Tango42>	that works to. I will also respond to my initials (it's been years since I've been called "TD", but it works)
Dec 01 22:33:54 <mpeel>	I used the paypal search engine: seemingly a very inefficient spade.
Dec 01 22:34:07 <Tango42>	*too
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Dec 01 22:54:14 <KTC>	thank you everyone :)
Dec 01 22:54:22 <Warofdreams>	yes, thank you
Dec 01 22:54:29 <Tango42>	and thank you, all
Dec 01 22:54:37 <mpeel>	that has to be one of the quickest meetings we've had - a mere 2 hours 25 minutes.
Dec 01 22:54:43 <Tango42>	:)
Dec 01 22:55:06 *	Warofdreams ( has left #wikimedia-uk