Meetings/2009-02-02/IRC

#wikimedia-uk-board

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[20:33] Warofdreams: hello - any word from KTC?
[20:33] mpeel: hi
[20:33] mpeel: I haven't heard anything
[20:34] mpeel: just apologies from andrew; he's delayed on a train.
[20:34] Warofdreams: yes, I saw that - so far as I'm concerned, I'm happy to wait 10 mins
[20:34] mpeel: me too - I just sat down to eat...
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[20:50] AndrewRT was granted voice by ChanServ.
[20:50] AndrewRT: Hi all
[20:50] AndrewRT: sorry I'm late!
[20:51] Warofdreams: hello - good to see you
[20:51] AndrewRT: how we doing?
[20:51] AndrewRT: no KTC?
[20:51] Warofdreams: we've been waiting for you; KTC is AWOL
[20:52] Warofdreams: mpeel, cfp - are you ready?
[20:52] AndrewRT: ok thanks
[20:53] cfp: i'm present at least.
[20:53] mpeel: I'm here
[20:53] Warofdreams: given you were only slightly delayed and KTC isn't here, it seemed sensible to wait. Plus mpeel is eating...
[20:53] cfp: whether i'm ready is a different matter entirely
[20:53] mpeel: has anyone phoned KTC?
[20:53] mpeel: I'm finished eating now. 
[20:53] Warofdreams: does anyone have his number to hand?
[20:53] AndrewRT: I'll ring him now
[20:53] cfp: oh he texted me sorry
[20:53] cfp: i only just noticed it
[20:53] cfp: he can't make it
[20:54] Warofdreams: that's a shame.
[20:54] Warofdreams: in the meantime, who would like to chair?
[20:54] Warofdreams: if there are no volunteers, I'd be happy to
[20:55] cfp: go ahead
[20:55] Warofdreams: any objections to me chairing?
[20:55] mpeel: erm... you volunteered, but only if there are no volunteers... 
[20:56] mpeel: catch 22?
[20:56] Warofdreams:
[20:56] AndrewRT: WarofDreams would be good
[20:56] Warofdreams: ok, minutes of the last meeting are at http://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Meetings/2009-01-19&oldid=2351
[20:57] Warofdreams: everyone happy with them?
[20:57] AndrewRT: I'm happy with those
[20:57] AndrewRT: mpeel? cfp?
[20:57] mpeel: they look fine
[20:58] Warofdreams: cfp, any objections?
[20:58] cfp: nope
[20:58] cfp: sorry.
[20:58] Warofdreams: great.
[20:58] Warofdreams: 4.1 Chapters Agreement with WMF
[20:58] Warofdreams: cfp...
[20:58] cfp: heard back from mike on saturday evening
[20:58] cfp: we are now official
[20:58] cfp: doc signed etc etc
[20:59] mpeel: great
[20:59] Warofdreams: excellent
[20:59] cfp: was going to phone the coop today, but was out with work all day, so i'll do it tomorrow
[20:59] AndrewRT: have you signed them and returned?
[20:59] mpeel: do all three signatures need to be on the same bit of paper, or are we ok with them on seperate ones?
[20:59] cfp: they're all on the same bit of electronic paper
[20:59] AndrewRT: remind me who was going to sign them again?
[20:59] cfp: me, mpeel and mike
[20:59] cfp: goodwin
[21:00] cfp: godwin even
[21:00] AndrewRT: so what's the plan for us signing them?
[21:01] cfp: we have
[21:01] cfp: that was my point
[21:01] Warofdreams: do we have a copy ready to send to the bank?
[21:01] cfp: i just emailed round the signed pdf for you sceptics
[21:01] AndrewRT: have cfp and mpeel printed and signed separate versions?
[21:01] cfp: yup i have a print out on my desk, though i'm hoping email will be fine as the signatures are in the pdf anyway
[21:02] cfp: see the email.
[21:02] cfp: it's done. all on the same sheet
[21:02] AndrewRT: ok that's good.
[21:03] Warofdreams: so is everything set to send to the bank?
[21:03] cfp: yes
[21:03] Warofdreams: brilliant
[21:03] AndrewRT: can I check what's the order of events from now on?
[21:03] Warofdreams: anything more on this?
[21:03] Warofdreams: sorry, Andrew
[21:03] cfp: what do you mean?
[21:04] cfp: this was all agreed a fortnight ago wasn't it?
[21:04] AndrewRT: just so I understand the timeline
[21:04] AndrewRT: sign agreement 2nd Feb
[21:04] AndrewRT: Open bank account 9th??
[21:04] cfp: sounds reasonable.
[21:04] AndrewRT: Process applications 10th-11th?
[21:04] cfp: i'll know better when i've spoken to them on the phone tomorrow.
[21:05] AndrewRT: accounce AGM 12th
[21:05] AndrewRT: Hold AGM about 14th March?
[21:05] AndrewRT: is that about right?
[21:06] mpeel: have we skipped to section 10, timetable review, now?
[21:06] Warofdreams: that all sounds plausible to me
[21:06] AndrewRT: do you want to come back to it then or discuss it now?
[21:06] Warofdreams: no reason why we can't discuss that now, if it fits
[21:06] AndrewRT: thanks
[21:06] AndrewRT: how sure are we about the dates?
[21:06] AndrewRT: sure enough to be able to book the AGM?
[21:06] mpeel: I just wanted to be clear: I'm fine discussing now.
[21:06] mpeel: I thought that we wanted more time in between starting to accept members and announcing AGM.
[21:07] AndrewRT: that's all we've got on the timetable now
[21:07] AndrewRT: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Timeline
[21:07] AndrewRT: how long do you think we need?
[21:07] Warofdreams: I think we should wait on booking until we've had word from the bank on their likely turnaround on this
[21:07] cfp: i'll email round tomorrow.
[21:08] AndrewRT: mpeel - how long do you think we need?
[21:08] AndrewRT: thanks cfp
[21:08] mpeel: AndrewRT: not sure, am trying to think through what deadlines are present.
[21:08] mpeel: we need to have accepted members before 14 days before the AGM.
[21:09] mpeel: I don't know whether we want to have processed the applications fully by then or not.
[21:09] mpeel: e.g. cheques take a certain amount of time to process.
[21:09] AndrewRT: good point
[21:09] mpeel: I'm wary that there will be some (lots of?) people waiting until we have got a bank account before they'll even start the application process.
[21:10] AndrewRT: I think you're right mpeel
[21:10] mpeel: we need to announce the AGM > 21 days before it happens, right?
[21:11] mpeel: so we'd currently announce the agm ~ 1st feb (according to the current timetable)
[21:11] mpeel: is there an upper limit to how long a notice we can give for the AGM?
[21:11] Warofdreams: yes, 21 days
[21:11] AndrewRT: Just looking at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Meetings/2009_AGM/Notice#Statutory_requirements
[21:12] AndrewRT: in practice it's 23 days if we send it by email
[21:12] AndrewRT: I'm not aware of any upper limit
[21:13] mpeel: My preference would be for an AGM at the end of March, begining of April.
[21:13] Warofdreams: nor me, although even if there is one, I don't think we need to worry about hitting it
[21:13] mpeel: giving ~ 2 weeks extra leeway for members.
[21:13] AndrewRT: mpeel - you mentioned there were some dates you couldn't make - when's that again?
[21:13] mpeel: I'm not sure.
[21:13] Warofdreams: our six month deadline is early May, so end of March/early April would work
[21:14] AndrewRT: 28th March is a Saturday?
[21:14] AndrewRT: Notices out, say 2nd March
[21:15] mpeel: One of the things I'm currently working on is a telescope receiver, which I need to take to a telescope and install, which will mean being out of the country for ~ 2-3 weeks at least. However, the receiver's currently having problems, and I'm not sure when it will be finished...
[21:15] AndrewRT: gives us a week to open the account and two weeks to process applications
[21:15] mpeel: that seems reasonable to me.
[21:15] Warofdreams: Are we going for a Saturday?  It's fine with me, but I recall someone on IRC was keen it was a Sunday
[21:16] mpeel: saturdays are better for things like transport.
[21:16] AndrewRT: I think Saturdays are better too - trains are better
[21:16] mpeel: If I recall correctly, that was the outcome of that IRC discussion.
[21:17] Warofdreams: Sounds like a Saturday, then.  28th March sounds a good date, provided the response from the bank is as expected
[21:18] Warofdreams: not a bank holiday, no major religious observances
[21:18] mpeel: could someone update the timetable with these dates?
[21:19] AndrewRT: Just done - how does that look?
[21:19] AndrewRT: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Timeline
[21:20] mpeel: "Finish processing applications for membership" should be a couple of days before the AGM itself.
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[21:21] Warofdreams: also, Birmingham City Council don't have any events listed for 28th March on their website (other than "GRAND RUMMAGE SALE, BRIC-A-BRAC + BOOKS", which I think we can risk a clash with)
[21:21] AndrewRT: changed
[21:21] mpeel: We probably want to announce the AGM such that people have the maximum possible time to put in their candidateship - was the earliest for this 35 days before the AGM?
[21:22] mpeel: ah - 17.2b, 35 days before.
[21:22] mpeel: = 5 weeks
[21:23] mpeel: ~ the 21st feb.
[21:24] AndrewRT: that sounds good to me!
[21:25] AndrewRT: how does it look now?
[21:25] AndrewRT: http://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Timeline&oldid=2427
[21:25] mpeel: looks great
[21:25] Warofdreams: looks good to me, too
[21:26] AndrewRT: cfp?
[21:26] AndrewRT: you ok with it?
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[21:27] AndrewRT: is he off discussing Wikimania?
[21:27] cfp: sorry i'm half asleep
[21:27] cfp: long day. seems fine.
[21:27] AndrewRT: thanks
[21:27] Warofdreams: 4.2 AGM location: AndrewRT
[21:28] AndrewRT: yep thats me
[21:28] AndrewRT: spoke to a few people
[21:28] AndrewRT: via the list, wikipedia editors who put themselves down as Bham Uni people
[21:28] AndrewRT: not got too far yet
[21:28] AndrewRT: I think now I'll just approach the SU direct
[21:28] AndrewRT: see if they'll help
[21:28] cfp: try the university direct as well.
[21:28] AndrewRT: if everyone's ok with this I'll call tehm tomorrow?
[21:28] cfp: say we're a charity
[21:28] AndrewRT: cfp - ok will do
[21:29] AndrewRT: yes good idea
[21:29] Warofdreams: with the date we've agreed, there should be time to sort something out in the event that the uni isn't possible
[21:29] Warofdreams: but let's hope it is!
[21:29] AndrewRT: yes thats right
[21:29] AndrewRT: we still have an offer of a room in Manchester
[21:30] AndrewRT: which we can keep in our back pocket if it all falls through
[21:30] AndrewRT: is everyone happy with me continuing to work on this?
[21:30] Warofdreams: yes, I am
[21:30] cfp: yup thanks
[21:31] Warofdreams: mpeel?
[21:31] mpeel: yup
[21:31] AndrewRT: great
[21:31] Warofdreams: 4.3 AGM Tellers: AndrewRT
[21:31] AndrewRT: right can we go private?
[21:32] mpeel: if we must
[21:32] AndrewRT: what's the channel?
[21:33] mpeel: have sent it around by PM
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[21:44] AndrewRT: ok for the record two people have volunteered to act as tellers
[21:44] AndrewRT: James Farrar and Sarah McCulloch
[21:44] AndrewRT: the Board has agreed to appoint these two
[21:44] AndrewRT: next item?
[21:45] Warofdreams: 4.4 Website
[21:45] Warofdreams: cfp / mpeel
[21:45] mpeel: http://uk.wikimedia.org/
[21:45] mpeel: it now exists
[21:45] AndrewRT: lots of developments!
[21:45] mpeel: and the content from meta has been imported to it.
[21:45] AndrewRT: thanks for all your work on this
[21:45] mpeel: please let me know if I forgot to import anything.
[21:45] Warofdreams: yes, this is great
[21:45] AndrewRT: who owns and manages uk.wikimedia.org?
[21:45] mpeel: the WMF
[21:46] AndrewRT: who can edit it at the moment?
[21:46] mpeel: anyone
[21:46] mpeel: uploads require autoconfirming
[21:46] cfp: apart from the pages we've protected
[21:46] AndrewRT: should we planning to restrict editing?
[21:46] Warofdreams: but we all have admin and bureaucrat rights, so we can restrict anything we need to
[21:46] mpeel: not unless we run into problems, I don't think.
[21:46] AndrewRT: us five are admins did you say?
[21:47] mpeel: KTC isn't an admin yet, as I don't think he's logged in.
[21:47] mpeel: The rest of us are both sysops and bureaucrats
[21:47] mpeel: == admins + the ability to grant adminship
[21:47] Warofdreams: http://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special%3AListUsers&username=&group=sysop&limit=50
[21:47] AndrewRT: wow always wanted to be an admin!! 
[21:47] Warofdreams: and flag bots and change usernames
[21:47] Warofdreams: I have some experience of being a bureaucrat 
[21:48] mpeel: great. 
[21:48] mpeel: One question that arose was: who, if anyone, should be granted adminship aside from board members?
[21:49] mpeel: See "User rights" under http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Water_cooler
[21:49] cfp: the usual trusted people makes sense. tango, majorly, seddon
[21:49] AndrewRT: should we raise on the email list?
[21:49] AndrewRT: ask people to apply?
[21:49] mpeel: some sort of cursory process, involving approval by a majority of the board, might be an idea.
[21:50] cfp: i suggest we just give it to people we know who will be actually editing.
[21:50] cfp: we really don't need many
[21:50] Warofdreams: Makes sense - I'd be happy to grant adminship to anyone else who wants to help with the website and is familiar enough to us that we don't expect them to mess about
[21:50] AndrewRT: just on the liability side
[21:51] AndrewRT: presumably as Wiki Uk Ltd effectively controls the content of the site
[21:51] AndrewRT: that means we're liable for any, e.g., libel on it?
[21:51] AndrewRT: unless we take reasonable care per cfp's friend's email
[21:51] mpeel: AndrewRT: I believe so, yes.
[21:52] AndrewRT: does this just mean we should check the recent changes every so often
[21:52] cfp: we should downplay our control as much as possible
[21:52] cfp: i have its rss feed subscribed
[21:52] Warofdreams: how separate from Wikimedia in general is it?  Can one or more of us have steward rights on it to de-sysop someone if needed, or is it just the general Wikimedia stewards?
[21:52] mpeel: bureaucrats should be able to de-sysop
[21:53] AndrewRT: cfp - what does its rss feed show?
[21:53] Warofdreams: is that an option we can turn on?  We can't do that on Wikipedia
[21:53] cfp: uh everything including diffs
[21:53] cfp: it's quite useful
[21:53] AndrewRT: excellent so we'll probably pick up any vandalism pretty quick
[21:54] AndrewRT: and be able to demonstrate that we have teh appropriate controls in place
[21:54] cfp: http://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title\x3dSpecial:RecentChanges\x26feed\x3drss
[21:54] AndrewRT: should anything problematic occur
[21:54] AndrewRT: that link didn't work for me
[21:54] Warofdreams: we can't de-sysop at the moment
[21:54] mpeel: ah: I was wrong, bureaucrats can't de-sysop.
[21:55] Warofdreams: Seddon>the user groups can be adjusted to give different powers
[21:55] AndrewRT: does the site have any stewards?
[21:55] Warofdreams: Tango42>indeed, a quick request on bugzilla will sort that out
[21:55] AndrewRT: would it be better just to make us five all stewards?
[21:55] mpeel: global WMF stewards will be stewards on this site too.
[21:55] AndrewRT: oh i c
[21:55] mpeel: I'll put in a bugzilla request about it later this evening.
[21:56] AndrewRT: so the site _is_ ultimately controlled by the WMF, not WMUK
[21:56] Warofdreams: great.  Do we need to discuss anything else on this?
[21:56] mpeel: yes, but we're still responsible for its content.
[21:56] AndrewRT: i dont think so - can we action mpeel on the bug request
[21:56] Warofdreams: will do.
[21:56] mpeel: once we can de-sysop people, then shall we give the afformentioned people adminship?
[21:57] mpeel: i.e. Tango42, Majorly and Seddon
[21:57] cfp: the more we can blame wmf the better really...
[21:57] AndrewRT: i suggest yes
[21:57] AndrewRT: cfp?
[21:57] Warofdreams: shall we check if they want it?  Tango42 has already indicated yes.
[21:58] cfp: seems sensible
[21:59] mpeel: A different issue with the website: we currently have site notices, and footer text, from the WMF.
[21:59] AndrewRT: Seddon>yes id be more than happy to
[21:59] mpeel: I think we'd be better off removing those, if we can, so that we're less linked with the WMF.
[21:59] mpeel: I'd also like to get the disclaimer into the footer, rather than having it as a template.
[22:00] mpeel: what do you three think?
[22:00] AndrewRT: This page http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Wikimedia:General_disclaimer seems like its already been tailored
[22:01] cfp: no i think we should only ever have the wiki uk limited is a limited blah blah blah template on pages we've protected
[22:01] mpeel: The license is currently hosted on the WMF main website
[22:01] Warofdreams: See http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Special:Allmessages for the generic messages which you can easily tailor
[22:02] mpeel: there's also a logo on the bottom left, currently hidden, which should be removed from the HTML
[22:02] cfp: writing the general disclaimer was the first thing i did. still need to get it verified by a friendly lawyer or two
[22:04] mpeel: ok, I think we're done with the website, aside from a general appeal to go edit it and make it better?
[22:05] Warofdreams: great.
[22:05] AndrewRT: yes sure
[22:05] mpeel: oh, actually, domain names...
[22:05] Warofdreams: 4.5 Moderation of #wikimedia-uk: mpeel
[22:05] mpeel: which ties in nicely with moderation. 
[22:05] Warofdreams:
[22:05] AndrewRT: sorry what about wikimedia.org.uk?
[22:05] mpeel: James Forrester got back to me - he'd been away.
[22:05] mpeel: I have a founder flag on #wikimedia-uk, I think, so can distribute permissions.
[22:06] mpeel: all board members except KTC, and the three trusted users, should now have op status.
[22:06] mpeel: James also asked me what the WMF's position on domain names should be
[22:06] mpeel: whether they should be held by the chapters, or the foundation.
[22:06] mpeel: I've since been in communication with Mike Godwin (as per the emails)
[22:07] mpeel: the WMF is currently thinking through their domain name policy
[22:07] mpeel: I'm pretty sure that they'll decide that the chapters should hold the main chapter domains
[22:07] mpeel: i.e. www.wikimedia.org.uk for us
[22:07] AndrewRT: that's what I was hoping for
[22:07] mpeel: others that are less necessary, e.g. wikimedia.co.uk, wikipedia.co.uk, etc., they might not want the chapters to have.
[22:07] AndrewRT: Michael B interesting said if they decided otherwise they'd raise it at the chapters meeting
[22:07] mpeel: but they're still thinking this through.
[22:08] mpeel: I'm holding back with requesting the transfer of domain names until I hear back from the WMF.
[22:09] Warofdreams: do we want to put a view to the WMF, or just wait for them to get back to us?
[22:09] mpeel: they already have my initial reactions, and Andrew's thoughts on the matter.
[22:09] AndrewRT: I think that's enough personally
[22:09] AndrewRT: is there anything you wanted to add?
[22:09] mpeel: Apart from poking them every so often (probably around the middle of this week), I'm not sure we want to do much more.
[22:09] Warofdreams: That seems wise.
[22:10] Warofdreams: OK, 4.5 Moderation
[22:10] mpeel: done
[22:10] mpeel: see ^
[22:10] Warofdreams: ah, I see.
[22:10] Warofdreams: speeding along...
[22:10] Warofdreams: 4.6 AGM Documents: AndrewRT
[22:10] AndrewRT: well the legal bit is basically done
[22:10] AndrewRT: fairly straightforward
[22:11] AndrewRT: what I could do with some help with
[22:11] AndrewRT: is the bits that say "why don't you think abotu standing for the board"
[22:11] AndrewRT: based on the timeline discussed
[22:11] AndrewRT: we need to finalise in the next fortnight
[22:11] AndrewRT: suggest formally approve at next meeting
[22:12] AndrewRT: in teh meantime could people suggest some words?
[22:12] mpeel: sounds reasonable
[22:12] mpeel: thanks for your work with these documents so far
[22:12] AndrewRT: no probs!
[22:13] AndrewRT: u happy with this WarofDreams, cfp?
[22:14] Warofdreams: I'm very happy
[22:14] cfp: yup
[22:14] AndrewRT: great thanks
[22:14] AndrewRT: next item then?
[22:14] Warofdreams: and would also be happy to suggest some words
[22:14] Warofdreams: 5. UK Government consultation on copyright
[22:14] AndrewRT: excellent please do
[22:14] AndrewRT: right 5 was put on the agenda by me
[22:15] AndrewRT: someone mentioned on internal-l that this was going on
[22:15] mpeel: the text for this is at http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Copyright_consultation
[22:15] mpeel: * text == page
[22:15] AndrewRT: some editors have said they would reply as individuals
[22:16] AndrewRT: I raised the question should the chapter put in an "official" response
[22:16] AndrewRT: it might be a good thing to raise our profile
[22:16] AndrewRT: they may even want to speak with us as part of their informal consultations with interested parties
[22:16] AndrewRT: teh down side is it closes soon
[22:17] AndrewRT: and we dont want to distract from our main jobs at the moment - openign bank account etc
[22:17] cfp: i'm happy for us to respond, but not for us to use anything like what is currently on wiki. sorry i haven't edited it myself.
[22:17] cfp: i spoke to a copyright lawyer friend and the copyright of photos of public domain works is currently ambiguous
[22:17] Warofdreams: I think that this would be a good thing to do, provided we can put together a reasoned response which is likely to be respected
[22:17] cfp: and is ripe for legislation
[22:17] AndrewRT: we dont really have anything to go on atm
[22:18] AndrewRT: except for http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Copyright_consultation#Geni.27s_draft_response
[22:18] cfp: well she gave me the revelvant cases etc etc
[22:18] AndrewRT: geni's personal response
[22:18] cfp: yeah i think we're best leaving that as geni's personal response
[22:18] Warofdreams: cfp: this is an issue which has come up on Wikipedia, and I believe on Wikimedia Commons.  Perhaps someone more involved could help with drafting a response on this?
[22:18] cfp: we will be ignored unless we're professional and very very specific.
[22:19] AndrewRT: I think there's value in us giving a broad general response
[22:19] Warofdreams: we don't need to respond to every question, only the ones where we have something to say
[22:19] AndrewRT: it at least gets our name out there
[22:19] cfp: we particularly should not be saying "ooh aren't open source licenses great, everyone should use them"
[22:19] mpeel: It's probably worth getting in touch with the commons community to get their opinions.
[22:19] AndrewRT: and this is very early stages of the consultation
[22:19] cfp: to who?
[22:20] AndrewRT: cfp?
[22:20] cfp: who does it get our name out to?
[22:20] AndrewRT: to teh government
[22:20] Warofdreams: bearing in mind that I haven't looked at the consultation, if this is the very early stages, then we should be thinking about the areas which we would like the later stages to address and push on them
[22:20] AndrewRT: I'm sure we'll be lobbying them on plenty of things in the future!
[22:21] cfp: uh huh. they'll forget us instantaneously unless we actually have a legally reasoned response.
[22:21] AndrewRT: we're wikipedia remember - everyone knows about us!!
[22:21] cfp: if anything it will be bad for our reputation putting out a broad response. "oh they're just another bunch of juvenile geeks"
[22:22] AndrewRT: personally I wasn't that impressed with the Dutch response here http://nl.wikimedia.org/wiki/Groep_Groenboek/en
[22:22] AndrewRT: I can see why someone would come to that conclusion with that
[22:23] AndrewRT: I think the first thing to decide is should we put in an official response from Wikimedia UK?
[22:23] cfp: so my suggestion is that we focus exclusively on this sub question
[22:23] Warofdreams: if we can put together a response which is taken seriously, even if it is quite brief and perhaps only addresses a limited number of points, I'd been keen to go for it.  But I agree with cfp that there's little value in a general response.
[22:23] cfp: Access to works
[22:23] cfp: The copyright system should maximise the availability of creative works to the public, ensuring that creative endeavour is rewarded while users can enjoy what has been created, on fair and reasonable terms. If the system is to work properly, it must hold the confidence of users.
[22:23] cfp: and answer it with respect to photographs of public domain works, citing relevant case law etc
[22:24] Warofdreams: I was reading something academic on copyrights law and the commons in the UK a couple of weeks ago.  I'll look and see if it could provide a useful starting point.
[22:24] AndrewRT: cfp - I know you're v busy atm with Wikimania, bank account etc
[22:25] AndrewRT: would you be able/want to draft something for this?
[22:25] cfp: just forwarded you all a chat with oxford's copyright lecturer
[22:25] cfp: on this question.
[22:26] cfp: we don't have a massive amount of time, so group effort might be in order
[22:26] AndrewRT: I can spare some time tomorrow
[22:27] AndrewRT: mpeel, WarofDreams can you spare any time this week?
[22:27] Warofdreams: I should be able to - this is a good week for me.
[22:27] mpeel: I think I have a busy week ahead of me...
[22:28] mpeel: but will try to help if I get the time.
[22:28] AndrewRT: ok shall we do what we can this week and see what we have by thursday night?
[22:28] AndrewRT: then decide if it's ok to send?
[22:28] cfp: great. well that email i just sent has a reasonable amount of content in it, and we can run a final draft past the person i was chatting with
[22:28] cfp: ook.
[22:28] mpeel: is it worth having a quick IRC meet on thursday, then?
[22:29] AndrewRT: my email's slow for some reason!
[22:29] Warofdreams: I can do that.
[22:29] AndrewRT: not getting them for a while after you send them
[22:29] Warofdreams: Andrew: me too
[22:29] AndrewRT: only just got your ealier one
[22:29] mpeel: ditto
[22:29] cfp: ahh rubbish. weird.
[22:29] cfp: i'm out at a poetry reading till some unspecified time on thursday night
[22:29] cfp: could we just agree by email?
[22:30] AndrewRT: sure
[22:30] Warofdreams: yep, e-mail round on Thursday night?
[22:30] mpeel: ok
[22:30] AndrewRT: Lets' email round a final version on Thursday for submission by email on Friday
[22:31] Warofdreams: great.  Any more on this?
[22:31] AndrewRT: dont think so
[22:31] Warofdreams: ok then, 6. Newsletter: me
[22:31] AndrewRT: thanks for sorting that out
[22:31] Warofdreams: the newsletter went out.  It was a few days later than planned, but was in January.
[22:32] AndrewRT: and double thanks for doing my bits too!
[22:32] AndrewRT: next newsletter after AGM notice sent out late Feb?
[22:33] mpeel: that makes sense
[22:33] Warofdreams: yes, thanks Mike for writing beyond the call of duty!
[22:33] AndrewRT: really?
[22:33] Warofdreams: Andrew: I agree on late Feb.
[22:33] AndrewRT: ok anything else to discuss?
[22:34] mpeel: not with this, I don't think
[22:34] Warofdreams: not on this.
[22:34] Warofdreams: any reports?
[22:34] Warofdreams: Treasurer?
[22:34] AndrewRT: Can I raise one thing on this?
[22:35] AndrewRT: cfp?
[22:36] Warofdreams: asleep? 
[22:36] cfp: go on
[22:36] AndrewRT: anything to report cfp?
[22:37] cfp: no. will knock up some accounts once other wiki uk work loads quiten down
[22:37] AndrewRT: thanks
[22:37] cfp: i thought you had something to ask me
[22:37] AndrewRT: I just wanted to mention about Wiki Loves Art
[22:37] AndrewRT: Thanks first to cfp for the work he put in finding sponsors
[22:37] AndrewRT: which was successful meaning the chapter doesn't have to contribute any prizes
[22:37] AndrewRT: also also the work you put in doing the handouts
[22:38] AndrewRT: i had a question about expenses
[22:38] AndrewRT: we had expenses for printing (cfp) and travel (cfp & me)
[22:38] cfp: printing is free for me
[22:38] cfp: i get 5000 sheets a year
[22:38] AndrewRT: is it worth claiming these, even if we just recycle the money and get the gift aid?
[22:39] AndrewRT: oh, ignore printing then
[22:39] cfp: and i seem to have thrown away my bus receipt
[22:39] AndrewRT: ok
[22:39] cfp: didn't really occur to me. but you claim if you want
[22:39] cfp: it's further for you
[22:39] AndrewRT: yeah and more expensive!
[22:39] AndrewRT: got it for ~£60 thsi time - can be up to £120
[22:39] cfp: everyone happy with that
[22:40] AndrewRT: mpeel? WarofDreams?
[22:40] mpeel: fine by me
[22:40] AndrewRT: ok I'll do that then
[22:40] Warofdreams: that's fine with me
[22:40] AndrewRT: that's all on Treasurers report - shall I do secs report?
[22:40] Warofdreams: please
[22:41] AndrewRT: two items from me
[22:41] AndrewRT: first - you saw the email I sent re the chapters meeting in Berlin
[22:41] cfp: yeah thanks for replying
[22:41] AndrewRT: second - the foundation are posting me a paper copy of their annual report
[22:41] AndrewRT: why I'm not entirely sure - but they wanted to!!
[22:41] mpeel: sorry for not replying to your request for comments, but it looked fine.
[22:41] AndrewRT: thanks mpeel
[22:41] mpeel: I'm not sure you're getting just one copy.
[22:41] Warofdreams: are they just sending one?  They seemed to suggest they were sending chapters several
[22:41] mpeel: I think it's more like 30.
[22:42] AndrewRT: oh no!!
[22:42] mpeel: I could be wrong, though.
[22:42] AndrewRT: I suppose I could bring them to the AGM
[22:42] Warofdreams: provided they're not too heavy
[22:42] mpeel: they might be useful if the wikimania bid needs paper things to send out.
[22:42] Warofdreams: that'd be good
[22:42] mpeel: e.g. as part of a sponsorship request.
[22:42] AndrewRT: ok
[22:43] AndrewRT: that's all from me on secs report
[22:43] Warofdreams: 9. Membership Report
[22:43] Warofdreams: mpeel: anything to report?
[22:43] mpeel: only a brief one from me: one more application received, bringing us to 8 in total. Am looking forward to being able to start accepting them...
[22:43] AndrewRT: any more forms received?
[22:43] mpeel: ... that 8 excludes the one from Andrew.
[22:43] AndrewRT: what's the plan regarding the other directors?
[22:43] mpeel: and also Tango's potential application.
[22:44] Warofdreams: I was planning on sending one this week, now everything is ready to go with the bank
[22:44] mpeel: I'm happy not receiving an application from them.
[22:44] Warofdreams: ...but I don't have to, if you don't want one!
[22:44] mpeel: but dues should be paid into the bank account one we have one...
[22:44] AndrewRT: the application form has a couple of declarations on it
[22:44] AndrewRT: dont we need the directors to sign these?
[22:45] mpeel: well, we're already members, so we're not applying for membership.
[22:45] mpeel: If we want a paper trail, then I can put together a seperate form for the directors...
[22:46] AndrewRT: presume the directors are all expected to pay the membership dues?
[22:46] mpeel: yes
[22:46] mpeel: probably starting from the time when we set up the company...
[22:46] AndrewRT: ok
[22:47] AndrewRT: lets hope we get a flood of applications once we get the bank account opened!
[22:47] mpeel:
[22:47] Warofdreams: we can hassle people to take paper application forms to Wikimeets, and generally really push on this, once the bank account is open
[22:48] Warofdreams: any more on this?
[22:48] AndrewRT: dont think so
[22:48] LoopZilla left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[22:48] mpeel: I need to redo the application form at some point to include gift aid and the new logo
[22:48] mpeel: but that's it for this section, methinks.
[22:48] Warofdreams: we've covered 10. Timetable review
[22:48] Warofdreams: so 11. Wikimania bid
[22:49] AndrewRT: cfp?
[22:49] Warofdreams: Seddon set up a discussion alongside this board meeting, and contributors were very much in favour of continuing with the bid
[22:50] cfp: i went to a dire networking event last week
[22:50] cfp: got contact details of someone senior at microsoft
[22:50] cfp: will pester them when i have the time
[22:50] mpeel: [22:50] Seddon: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/BT_Proposal
[22:50] mpeel: [22:50] Seddon: this needs to be finished asap
[22:51] cfp: didn't really have any success with the locla sponsors though
[22:51] cfp: local potential sponsors i should say
[22:51] AndrewRT: what's the deadline for the BT Proposal?
[22:51] mpeel: shall we voice seddon?
[22:51] AndrewRT: if u want
[22:52] Seddon was granted voice by ChanServ.
[22:52] mpeel: Seddon: when's the deadline for the BT proposal?
[22:52] Seddon: There is no "set" deadline but its been two weeks since me and jeremy (the bt director of open source innovation) agreed for me to create this proposal
[22:53] AndrewRT: what more work is needed on it?
[22:53] AndrewRT: looks pretty near complete atm
[22:53] AndrewRT: or is there more you're looking for?
[22:53] Seddon: mpeel suggested extending it to a prelim request for sponsorship
[22:54] Seddon: as well as a general description
[22:54] mpeel: I wasn't sure what BT wanted to get out of the proposal.
[22:54] mpeel: in my experience, proposals are normally asking for things... 
[22:54] AndrewRT: has jeremy given you any guidelines for what he's expecting?
[22:55] Seddon: all we initially agreed on was    * Description of what wikimania is and its history    * Outline of the Oxford 2010 bid    * Previous Sponsors and examples of sponsor structure
[22:56] AndrewRT: is it long enough / detailed enough atm do you think or does it need padding out?
[22:56] Seddon: this is as long as id want those sections to be
[22:57] Seddon: if we added more it wouldnt be able to be much
[22:57] AndrewRT: well I think this is ok to go then as it is
[22:57] AndrewRT: do you agree?
[22:58] AndrewRT: Seddon?
[22:58] Seddon: im happy with it, i just want/need it ratified by the board
[22:58] AndrewRT: oh i c
[22:59] AndrewRT: well, I'm very happy with it
[22:59] AndrewRT: thanks Seddon for your work on it
[22:59] AndrewRT: cfp, WarofDreams, mpeel any comments?
[22:59] mpeel: nope - it's fine by me.
[23:00] Warofdreams: I've made a couple of very minor changes, and I'm happy with it
[23:01] AndrewRT: I'm happy with those changes
[23:01] Warofdreams: changes: http://uk.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=BT_Proposal&diff=2432&oldid=2430
[23:01] cfp: i've just made a few changes too
[23:01] Seddon: also if the board are happy I will use this to contact other companies
[23:02] AndrewRT: yes please - I dont think you need to come back to us to do that
[23:02] AndrewRT: just please cc us in on any correspondence
[23:02] Warofdreams: I agree with Andrew.
[23:02] mpeel: ditto
[23:03] AndrewRT: ok - is that approved then?
[23:03] AndrewRT: should we tag it as such with {{notice}} at the top?
[23:03] cfp: yup notice makes sense.
[23:03] cfp: and perhaps protect it
[23:03] AndrewRT: ok I'll do that
[23:04] cfp: since seddon's an admin now anyway
[23:04] cfp: (right?)
[23:04] Seddon: i am?
[23:04] Seddon: wasnt sure if i had been made one yet
[23:04] mpeel: no... we're waiting until we can desysop people first.
[23:04] mpeel: just in case... 
[23:04] Seddon: ok cool 
[23:04] cfp: oh sure. forgetful
[23:04] cfp: well be sure to send a link to a specific point in the history then seddon
[23:05] cfp: we don't want BT seeing a load of vandalism
[23:05] Seddon: your all admins are you not
[23:05] AndrewRT: I've protected
[23:05] mpeel: Seddon: yes
[23:05] mpeel: any changes than need making, drop us a line.
[23:06] Seddon: sure thing
[23:06] Warofdreams: any more on this?
[23:06] AndrewRT: is there anything else to discuss under Wikimania 2010?
[23:06] AndrewRT: the bidding has officially started of course
[23:06] Seddon: one last thing
[23:06] Seddon: when i ahve the ability to, ill be wanting to hold possibly weekly irc meetings, board attendence if possible would be grateful
[23:07] Seddon: along with everyone elese
[23:07] Seddon: else*
[23:07] AndrewRT: ok
[23:07] AndrewRT: could you advertise on the list
[23:07] Seddon: i shall
[23:07] AndrewRT: and on the main page http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Main_Page
[23:07] AndrewRT: in the {{notice}}
[23:08] AndrewRT: I'll try to attend when I can
[23:08] Warofdreams: great.  on to 12. AOB?
[23:08] Seddon had voice removed by ChanServ.
[23:08] AndrewRT: can I just clarify what was decided about sysops on uk.wm
[23:08] AndrewRT: ?
[23:08] mpeel: Seddon, Majorly and Tango42 will be sysops, once we have the ability to desysop people
[23:09] AndrewRT: Majorly, Seddon and Tango42 have now all come back and agreed to be sysops
[23:09] mpeel: additional people can be sysops by request.
[23:09] AndrewRT: ok that makes sense
[23:09] mpeel: chapter meet...
[23:09] AndrewRT: AOB?
[23:09] AndrewRT: ah yes
[23:09] mpeel: april 3-5
[23:09] mpeel: immediately after when the AGM is scheduled for...
[23:09] AndrewRT: worth adding to the timeline?
[23:09] mpeel: definitely
[23:10] mpeel: Assuming we hold the AGM on that date, then the new board won't have had time to get used to the role (or book tickets etc.), and the old board may not still be present.
[23:10] AndrewRT: true
[23:10] AndrewRT: I agree that we should decide on someone now
[23:11] AndrewRT: or some people
[23:11] mpeel: would it be worth having a mini-election amongst the community to decide on a person to represent the uk community at the meeting?
[23:11] AndrewRT: and I guess also decide whether we want to go, send 2 people or subsidise another chapter
[23:11] mpeel: I doubt we'll be in a position to subsidise.
[23:11] AndrewRT: how much will it cost again?
[23:11] mpeel: plane ticket
[23:11] mpeel: + accommodation costs
[23:12] mpeel: + food
[23:12] mpeel: I'd expect ~ £100-200 for the former, depending on when it's booked.
[23:12] Warofdreams: I don't think we should commit ourselves to subsidising any other chapter to do anything before we've got money in
[23:12] cfp: gulp i don't think we should commit ourselves to paying for ourselves
[23:12] mpeel: can't remember the stated cost of accommodation, but expect ~ £50 per day for food plus accommodation.
[23:12] Warofdreams: Sending one person seems ideal, as it's what the WMF have asked for, and it would keep costs down
[23:13] AndrewRT: ok I've found the email they reckon €150 per person travel
[23:13] AndrewRT: I guess thas about £150 now!
[23:13] cfp: we really have to be careful about our spending.
[23:13] AndrewRT: how much money can we realisticallt budget?
[23:14] AndrewRT: how much will we have raised by then through subs?
[23:14] mpeel: we have ~ £200 in cheques atm from donations and membership dues.
[23:14] cfp: well even if we could afford it, i'm not sure that's the best way to be spending our money
[23:14] cfp: and i also think it's a bit insulting to be using people's donations to fund what looks a lot like a holiday for us
[23:14] AndrewRT: its three days so I guess thats £300 per person
[23:14] AndrewRT: cfp - yeah I agree
[23:14] cfp: we should be pleading small chapter status
[23:15] AndrewRT: we could always not go
[23:15] AndrewRT: say we're too small to benefit
[23:15] AndrewRT: Frankly I'm not sure it's a proportionate use of our funds
[23:16] Warofdreams: it would be good to send someone if we can, but given the timing, we have a good "excuse" should we not be able to.
[23:16] AndrewRT: £300 is a lot of money for us to spend
[23:16] mpeel: easyjet price for flights would be just over £150, btw.
[23:16] AndrewRT: that was £150 flights plus £150 food+accom
[23:17] cfp: i suggest we make it clear that us going depends on someone else paying.
[23:17] AndrewRT: i preusme this is an annual event?
[23:18] mpeel: cfp: I agree.
[23:18] mpeel: AndrewRT: I think that's the plan...
[23:18] AndrewRT: next year we would be in a better shape to be spending money on something like this
[23:18] cfp: yeah. we'll have the donation drive money then
[23:19] AndrewRT: I think if another chapter wants to pay for us to go, that changes things
[23:19] cfp: which i'd feel a lot less guilty spending on this
[23:19] AndrewRT: WarofDreams what do you think?
[23:19] Warofdreams: I reluctantly have to agree
[23:20] mpeel: reluctantly?
[23:20] AndrewRT: ok, so we all seem to agree that we dont want to pay for this
[23:20] AndrewRT: what if another chapter offers to pay - do we go then and if so who?
[23:20] mpeel: "we don't" -> "we can't"?
[23:20] Warofdreams: mpeel: I think this would be a good thing to do, but the finances just don't seem to work
[23:20] AndrewRT: yes possibly we cant
[23:21] mpeel: if we can get external funding, then someone representing the chapter should go.
[23:21] Warofdreams: we might have £300, but we might not, and even if we do, it's likely to be pretty much everything from membership, and there will be other important expenses
[23:22] cfp: yeah. i think we're agreed on this.
[23:22] AndrewRT: presumably the delegates should be board members?
[23:23] AndrewRT: if so who would like to go?
[23:23] AndrewRT: I'm afraid I cant take the time off work
[23:23] cfp: what were the dates again?
[23:23] mpeel: April 3-5
[23:23] AndrewRT: Fri to Sun
[23:24] AndrewRT: when's Easter?
[23:24] mpeel: easter sunday is the 12th, I think
[23:24] Warofdreams: yes, April 12th
[23:24] AndrewRT: yep so weekend before Easter
[23:25] AndrewRT: Tango42>I'll be on Easter hols at the time, so could go if asked
[23:25] cfp: i could potentially go. but i'm maybe not the best person for a variety of reasons.
[23:25] AndrewRT: WarofDreams, cfp, mpeel, would you be interested in going?
[23:26] AndrewRT: cfp? huh?
[23:26] Warofdreams: only if no-one else can - I shouldn't have a problem getting time off work, but I have a deadline for a course I'm studying that week
[23:26] mpeel: I could probably go, but I have a fair bit on my plate already...
[23:28] Warofdreams: Tango42 and Seddon have both indicated that they may be able to attend, and I believe they are both planning on standing for the next board
[23:28] AndrewRT: they have both said they are
[23:28] AndrewRT: what if they aren't elected though?
[23:29] Warofdreams: what if we aren't elected?  we'll have to choose someone before the election
[23:29] AndrewRT: if we send, say, mpeel and he isnt elected at least we can say he's an ex-Board member
[23:29] mpeel: can I suggest that we put this to the community (i.e. the mailing list), and also ask on the chapters list?
[23:30] AndrewRT: ok
[23:30] AndrewRT: and decide at the next meeting?
[23:30] mpeel: yup
[23:30] Warofdreams: makes sense - we will need to let the WMF know our position, anyway
[23:30] mpeel: Andrew: could you do that? You're more of an uninterested party than the rest of us...
[23:30] mpeel: (as in, you definitely can't go)
[23:30] Warofdreams: disinterested?
[23:31] AndrewRT: do what sorry>
[23:31] AndrewRT: ?
[23:31] mpeel: send the emails to the lists?
[23:31] AndrewRT: yeah sure
[23:31] AndrewRT: action me for that
[23:31] Warofdreams: will do.
[23:31] Warofdreams: One quick piece of AOB:
[23:32] AndrewRT: yep
[23:32] Warofdreams: mpeel and I have been added to the Communications Committee mailing list
[23:32] AndrewRT: great
[23:32] AndrewRT: what does that mean?
[23:32] Warofdreams: and mpeel and David Gerard have been doing sterling work this week dealing with the media regarding semi-protection on the English language Wikipedia
[23:33] AndrewRT: yes thanks to mpeel for his BBc wales piece!
[23:33] Warofdreams: actually, I think anyone can add themselves, so it's no secret
[23:33] mpeel: I think the list is invite-only
[23:33] mpeel: thanks andrew
[23:33] AndrewRT: Comms Cmts mailing list - receives communications from the Committee?
[23:33] Warofdreams: actually, that makes sense.
[23:34] • mpeel has already been semi-told off by Jimmy Wales as a result...
[23:34] AndrewRT: oops
[23:34] Warofdreams: Andrew: yes, and can discuss stuff around communications
[23:34] AndrewRT: ok
[23:34] AndrewRT: bit like internal-l then but for external comms?
[23:34] Warofdreams: generally, there's notice of stories that have come up around the world or may arise.
[23:34] Warofdreams: Andrew: that's it.
[23:35] AndrewRT: ok anything else or can we close?
[23:35] mpeel: one last thing...
[23:35] cfp: mpeel: what were you doing, dare i ask...
[23:35] mpeel: I called him a god-king, but apparently he doesn't like that phrase...
[23:35] mpeel: I don't think it ended up on the radio anyway, though.
[23:36] AndrewRT: yes mpeel?
[23:36] mpeel: (he heard about it during my what-i-said-to-the-radio-guy summary)
[23:36] mpeel: Tango42 linked to http://lawworks.org.uk/?id=not_for_profits earlier
[23:36] mpeel: is this worth investigating?
[23:36] cfp: yeah seems it
[23:36] AndrewRT: who should do it?
[23:37] AndrewRT: i can if u want
[23:38] AndrewRT: u happy with that?
[23:38] Warofdreams: ok, unless there are any objections to that, let's fix the date for the next board meeting
[23:38] AndrewRT: fortnights time?
[23:38] mpeel: a week's time would be better...
[23:39] Warofdreams: do we want to meet in a week to approve membership applications?
[23:39] cfp: yeah can do
[23:39] AndrewRT: hmm theres a thought
[23:39] mpeel: Warofdreams: yes please.  Assuming we have a bank account...
[23:39] AndrewRT: next Monday I'm in London for the day
[23:39] AndrewRT: given my past record I may be late!
[23:39] AndrewRT: (although I'll try not to be!)
[23:39] mpeel: Tuesday, then?
[23:39] Warofdreams: Tuesday 10th at 20:30, assuming we have a bank account?
[23:40] AndrewRT: Tuesday will be good for me
[23:40] AndrewRT: if no bank accoutn what will we do?
[23:40] mpeel: hold a quick meeting anyway?
[23:40] AndrewRT: why dont we approve the membership apps anyway?
[23:40] Warofdreams: if it becomes apparent we won't have a bank account, should we have a quick e-mail round to see if there's enough to discuss to merit a meeting?
[23:41] Warofdreams: can't think of any reason not to
[23:41] mpeel: we could approve anyway, on the basis that we'd accept once we have their fees in the bank account...
[23:41] mpeel: Tango42: you could discuss chapter meeting delegates in a week, if nothing else
[23:42] cfp: yeah ok
[23:42] AndrewRT: so everyone happy with n/Tues?
[23:42] mpeel: yup
[23:42] Warofdreams: yes
[23:42] AndrewRT: 10th Feb
[23:42] cfp: yup
[23:42] Warofdreams: great.  Meeting closed at 23:46.
[23:42] AndrewRT: thanks WarofDreams and everyone!

#wikimedia-uk

[20:33] Tango42: well, I'm here, at least
[20:33] Tango42: thanks to that global notice, anyway!
[20:34] mpeel: global notice?
[20:34] LondonStatto: if Andrew's only 10 minutes delayed on a train, he's quite lucky!
[20:35] Tango42: I just got a notice about connection issues, it reminded me I had irc open
[20:35] Seddon: can we all join the wikimania channel as well
[20:35] Seddon: just for tonight
[20:36] Seddon: it wont be an intensive discussion
[20:36] Seddon: but keeps this channel from clogging up too much
[20:37] mpeel: do you mean #wikimania or #wikimania-oxford?
[20:37] Seddon: oxford 
[20:37] Seddon: apologies
[20:39] Warofdreams: ... I just joined #wikimania-oxford? - #wikimania-oxford looks busier 
[20:40] Seddon: silly Warofdreams
[20:40] Warofdreams: didn't realise the links include question marks - can you tell I don't use IRC much?
[20:41] Seddon: i thought you were the world expect
[20:41] mpeel: ah - that comment didn't make sense to me because the ? doesn't form part of the auto-linked channel name on my irc client...
[20:41] Seddon: expert*
[20:41] • LoopZilla blips
[20:42] Warofdreams: no, I'm just the world expert on everything else 
[20:46] Tango42: I've been replaced, have I?
[20:48] Warofdreams:
[20:50] andrewrt joined the chat room.
[20:53] Seddon: can someone ring KTC?
[20:53] Majorly: zomg RL harrassment 
[20:54] LondonStatto: lol
[20:56] Seddon: mpeel stop being difficult 
[20:56] LondonStatto: geddonwidit! 
[20:56] mpeel: sorry. 
[20:57] mpeel: I'm afraid that I see logical fallacies and pounce on them... It's habit...
[20:58] LondonStatto: yay!
[20:59] AndrewRT: yay indeed!
[20:59] Warofdreams: Seddon is organising a discussion in #wikimania-oxford
[21:02] mpeel: BTW, please welcome the new channel overlords ... sorry, operators: AndrewRT, cfp, mpeel, Warofdreams, Majorly, Seddon and Tango42.
[21:02] Tango42: Power to the Cabal!
[21:02] mpeel: (assuming I've done it right, anyway)
[21:02] Warofdreams: mwhahahaha.  ahem.
[21:02] mpeel: welcome to the cabal, Tango42. 
[21:04] LondonStatto: your black helicopter will be landing shortly 
[21:04] Tango42 was promoted to operator by ChanServ.
[21:04] Tango42: Yep, you did it right!
[21:05] Tango42: (I eventually worked out how to use it...)
[21:05] Tango42 was demoted from operator by ChanServ.
[21:06] Comets joined the chat room.
[21:06] WaRpAtH left the chat room. (No route to host)
[21:10] • Seddon directs people to look at the wikimania channel
[21:12] Tango42: mpeel, that was yesterday...
[21:12] mpeel: I know. We're a little behind the timetable as it's currently on the website... 
[21:12] Tango42: tut, tut...
[21:14] Warofdreams: the timetable has always been an aspiration, rather than an expectation.  But of course it's always a pity if things are delayed
[21:15] Tango42: I know, I was joking. All it really means is you didn't update the timetable correctly at the last meeting, it's not a big deal.
[21:19] • Seddon is dissapointed with a saturday 
[21:20] AndrewRT: sorry Seddon!
[21:20] AndrewRT: Hope you can still make it
[21:20] Tango42: I think Saturday is the best option to fit in with most people
[21:21] messageex joined the chat room.
[21:21] messageex: hi
[21:21] Tango42: hi
[21:21] Warofdreams: hi
[21:21] messageex: what do you guys do?
[21:22] Tango42: At the moment, not a great deal, we're just getting started.
[21:22] Seddon: im unfortunately double booked already for the date and i just cant make a sat normally
[21:22] messageex: why so much money to join?
[21:23] Tango42: That's a pity, but I guess you'll just have to attend by proxy
[21:23] Tango42: £12 isn't that much...
[21:23] Tango42: £6 concessions
[21:23] Warofdreams: £1/50p a month
[21:23] messageex: yeah but
[21:23] messageex: where does the money go?
[21:23] Seddon: can candidates stand by proxy?
[21:23] messageex: jimbo wales' private bank acct?
[21:23] Tango42: Seddon: Yes
[21:23] Tango42: We have nothing to do with Jimbo
[21:24] messageex: lol I know
[21:24] messageex: just testing ya'
[21:24] Tango42: We're an independent charity
[21:24] Tango42: At the moment, most of the money will go on administration since that's the biggest expense while getting set up. Once all that is out of the way, the money will go on furthering our goals (spreading free knowledge, essentially)
[21:25] LondonStatto: i'm going to have to miss the rest of the discussions - got to go to work. will catch up with the logs when they show up onwiki 
[21:25] Tango42: Ok, bye!
[21:25] Warofdreams: bye
[21:25] messageex: bai
[21:25] Seddon: its unfortunate that i will be on my way back from scotland on the 28th recovering from the 13 hour bus journey back
[21:26] messageex: So how many members have you got so far?
[21:26] • LoopZilla has mentioned that the membership fees might be too high....
[21:26] LondonStatto left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[21:26] AndrewRT: how much do you think they should be?
[21:26] Seddon: LoopZilla: they are cheaper than alot of chapters
[21:26] Tango42: very unfortunate. You can give a written statement to the chair to read out when the other candidates give their speeches
[21:26] • LoopZilla still questions the cost
[21:27] Tango42: At the moment, there are 5 members, the board. I'm not sure how many applications have been recieved - mpeel?
[21:27] Tango42: £1 is perfectly reasonable by the standards of most UK charities
[21:27] mpeel: so far, 8 non-board-member applications have been received.
[21:27] LoopZilla: BTW, you could surely ask for cheques to "Wiki UK Ltd"?
[21:27] Tango42: cheques are, indeed, made payable to "Wiki UK Ltd"
[21:27] LoopZilla: Is that on the wiki then?
[21:28] Tango42: And at least one more has been posted!
[21:28] messageex: I'm shocked "Wiki UK Ltd" wasn't taken a long time ago
[21:28] mpeel: it's on the application form
[21:28] LoopZilla: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Donate
[21:28] mpeel: "Payment must be by an enclosed cheque, made payable to “Wiki UK Limited”."
[21:28] LoopZilla: Aha.
[21:28] mpeel: that page needs work
[21:28] LoopZilla: I was looking at "DONATE"
[21:29] Tango42: I left the address blank on that page hoping one of the board would fill it in... they haven't yet...
[21:29] mpeel: I just have
[21:29] messageex: how do I join as a board member?
[21:30] mpeel: not sure if it's the best address, though.
[21:30] Tango42: Board members are elected at the AGM
[21:30] mpeel: messageex: you apply to be a member, then once accepted you put yourself forward as a candidate.
[21:30] messageex: y so democratic
[21:30] LoopZilla: messageex: how do I join as a board member? ??? Easy!
[21:30] messageex: y no communism
[21:30] Tango42: We're governed by UK company and charity law, that's how it works.
[21:31] LoopZilla: UK charity law? Already?
[21:32] Tango42: We're a UK charity, so yes
[21:32] Tango42: We aren't registered yet, but we are a charity
[21:32] LoopZilla: No a registered charity tho'
[21:32] Tango42: CABAL! CABAL! CABAL!
[21:32] Tango42: registration just affects how much paperwork you have to fill out
[21:32] LoopZilla: The board goes private.
[21:33] messageex: I'm guessing it takes ages for the paperwork to go though?
[21:33] Tango42: Yeah, can do. You don't need to register until you have an annual income over £5000, though, so we haven't started that process.
[21:33] Tango42: We can get charitable status purely for tax purposes before then, that process has been started.
[21:34] messageex: t-t--t-t-t-t-tax
[21:34] AndrewRT: we're just going private to discuss the nominations for tellers - dont want to say anythign negative about people in public - wouldn't be fair on them
[21:35] messageex: brb
[21:35] messageex left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[21:38] Tango42: AndrewRT: Could you check with the applicants that they are willing to accept bribes? I don't want to get to the AGM and discover we've got a bunch of upstanding and incorruptible people running the election...
[21:39] • LoopZilla passes his wad to Tango42
[21:39] Tango42: wad of what? cash? I welcome all donations, but I'm not sure what you expect in exchange...
[21:40] • LoopZilla wants kudos
[21:42] Tango42: Ah, you just want me to remember you when I run off with all the charity's money?
[21:49] AndrewRT: Tango42 fancy being an admin on uk.wikimedia.org?
[21:50] Tango42: I'll take whatever positions of power I can get!
[21:50] AndrewRT: hehe?
[21:53] Seddon: the user groups can be adjusted to give different powers
[21:54] Tango42: indeed, a quick request on bugzilla will sort that out
[21:56] Tango42: steward is a cross-project position, we should use different names for whatever groups we want (I think just giving crats the desysop button is easiest, I thought they already had it by default... I guess WMF doesn't use the standard defaults)
[21:56] AndrewRT: thanks Tango42 makes sense now
[21:58] AndrewRT: Seddon, Majorly would you like to be admins on http://uk.wikimedia.org?
[21:58] Seddon: yes id be more than happy to
[21:59] AndrewRT: thanks!
[21:59] Warofdreams: other users are welcome to request adminship access - we'll put details out soon.
[22:00] Tango42: The footer should be editable by any admin (it will be in the Mediawiki: namespace somewhere, check Special:AllMessages to find out where). Getting rid of central notices would require asking WMF
[22:01] Tango42: Even the unprotected pages are part of the official website, so I think the notice would be desirable, if not legally required.
[22:02] Tango42: You know, sooner or later, we are going to need to get an actual solicitor...
[22:03] mpeel: the footer seems to be in HTML only still
[22:03] mpeel: bits of it might be editable on the messages, though.
[22:03] cfp: well we have one in effect, he's just pretty busy.
[22:03] mpeel: actual solicitor: once we have actual money. 
[22:03] Warofdreams: unless one wants to stand for the board?
[22:06] Tango42: we have a friendly barrister that gives us informal legal advice. We need something a little more formal and specialised, really (for when people start suing us for libel, for example). I'm hoping we can find someone to do it pro bono. We should contact other similar charities and see if they can put us in touch with anyone.
[22:06] Seddon: i think it may be worthwhile simply making the solicitor an employee "although unpaid for the time being"
[22:06] Tango42: we can't employ a solicitor, we're nowhere near that rich
[22:06] AndrewRT: the solicitor is unpaid - and probably wants to avoid the liability attached with any formal appointment
[22:07] cfp: yeah. his insurance doesn't cover anything not through his firm
[22:07] cfp: the firm he works for i should say
[22:08] Tango42: We need to find a solicitor's firm we can hire (or, preferably get the services of for free). There's only so far unofficial advice can get us.
[22:08] AndrewRT: theer's very little pro bono advice given these days
[22:08] cfp: well if you find one who's prepared to Tango, we'll glady start using them...
[22:08] AndrewRT: I agree we need to start paying for advice
[22:08] Tango42: AndrewRT: What solicitor? I only heard of a barrister, is there someone else, or are you just using the wrong word?
[22:08] AndrewRT: let's wait till we're drawing up our first budget!
[22:09] AndrewRT: sorry I meant barrister
[22:09] cfp: he's a trained barrister, working for a solicitor's firm.
[22:09] cfp: as, a solicitor basically
[22:09] cfp: "barrister at law" or something is his official title
[22:11] Tango42: That sounds very confusing... it always used to be "clients talk to solicitors, solicitors talk to barristers and barristers appear in court", it was nice and simple. Why did they have to go and mess it all up?
[22:12] Seddon was promoted to operator by ChanServ.
[22:12] Seddon was kicked from the chat room by Seddon. (Seddon)
[22:12] Seddon joined the chat room.
[22:12] Seddon: all in working order 
[22:13] AndrewRT: glad to hear it!
[22:24] Tango42: check this out: http://lawworks.org.uk/?id=not_for_profits
[22:25] Tango42: I think it might be worth filling out their form and seeing what happens
[22:25] LoopZilla: interesting to see any discussion of COPYRIGHT in month of "Wikimedia Loves ART that is COPYRIGHT expired"!!??!?!
[22:25] AndrewRT: "we are focused towards helping community groups benefiting deprived communities. "
[22:25] AndrewRT: yeah indeed.
[22:26] AndrewRT: makes you realise just how recent copyright law is
[22:27] AndrewRT: can anyone here spare some time this week to help us draft a response to the copyright consultation?
[22:28] Tango42: Their form has a list of check boxes for who you benefit, "general public" is one, we would probably go with that.
[22:29] Majorly: AndrewRT: wouldn't mind
[22:30] AndrewRT: excllent Majorly thanks. Page is here: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/Copyright_consultation
[22:30] Majorly: er
[22:30] Majorly: I was responding to "Seddon, Majorly would you like to be admins on http://uk.wikimedia.org?"
[22:30] AndrewRT: sorry!
[22:31] AndrewRT: my mistake
[22:31] AndrewRT: thanks for that - gratefully received
[22:31] Majorly: i only just got back
[22:36] AndrewRT: Do we have a membership application from Tango42 yet?
[22:36] Tango42: Posted today
[22:36] AndrewRT: wahay!
[22:39] • mpeel will believe it when he sees it
[22:40] AndrewRT: yeah quite!
[22:40] Tango42: If it doesn't arrive, it probably means the postman crashed in the snow
[22:41] Tango42: AndrewRT: Doesn't the chapters agreement require them to?
[22:42] AndrewRT: yeah it does, but I dont think it has to be paper copies!
[22:42] Tango42: No, I see little reason for paper copies, but oh well...
[22:43] Tango42: Do we have a date for the chapters meeting? In particular, is it before or after the AGM?
[22:43] AndrewRT: after
[22:44] AndrewRT: so the next Board will decide what to do
[22:44] Tango42: "potential"? Oh ye of little faith...
[22:44] Tango42: long enough after that the new board will have time to organise that and book flights or whatever is required?
[22:48] LoopZilla left the chat room. (Client Quit)
[22:49] mpeel: http://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Chapters_meeting_2009 says April 3-5th
[22:50] mpeel: so it will be rather tight...
[22:50] Seddon: http://uk.wikimedia.org/wiki/BT_Proposal
[22:50] Seddon: this needs to be finished asap
[22:51] Tango42: that's far too tight, it needs to be discussed in advance then
[22:51] Warofdreams: Seddon: what more would you like to see added to it?
[22:51] mpeel: will bring it up under AOB...
[22:51] Tango42: cheers
[22:51] AndrewRT: i think you're right Tango42 now the AGM has been pushed back
[22:52] Tango42: yeah, it wasn't a problem with the original timetable
[22:52] Tango42: the new board will now be meeting for the first time less than a week before the chapter meeting
[22:53] Tango42: we now have something of a problem deciding who to send because we don't know who will actually be on the board at the time (and it really ought to be board members going)
[22:53] mpeel: I guess there's two choices: move the AGM back, or move it forward.
[22:54] Warofdreams: - or prioritise the AGM above the chapter meeting
[22:54] Seddon: or agree on a representative before
[22:54] Seddon: i dont think the chapters meeting should be simply dropped
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[22:55] mpeel: concur - there should be some representation of the UK there.
[22:55] Warofdreams: I'm not arguing for that, just that we perhaps should stick with the AGM date and work out a solution to the chapter meeting around that
[22:55] mpeel: if we want to represent the charity, though, we need two board members representing it.
[22:55] Tango42: yeah, we should certainly send a representative
[22:56] Seddon: i get the feeling no real decisions are going to be made at the meeting
[22:56] Tango42: two board members are required if we want them to be able to commit to anything, we could just refuse to commit to things without going home and consulting the full board
[22:56] Warofdreams: we could meet on IRC if essential
[22:56] Tango42: I agree with Warofdreams - we shouldn't be pushing the AGM even further back just for this
[22:56] Tango42: meet on IRC for what?
[22:57] Warofdreams: to agree to something, if there's only one board member there
[22:57] Seddon: or even if there are no board members
[22:57] Warofdreams: yes, I guess that could work
[22:57] Seddon: but the person would need to be trusted
[22:59] schiste: [Just a quick comment] In other chapters, even before the AGM you "know" who'll be board member. I do think the same goes with WM-UK. So choose the representative now amogn the people you know will be elected as board members 
[22:59] Tango42: We need to choose a person or persons that we expect to be on the board, and if it turns out they aren't then we cross that bridge when we come to it (probably by giving them a pre-agreed remit and having them contact the board should anything unexpected come up
[22:59] Tango42: At the moment, I'm not sure we even know who'll be standing!
[23:00] AndrewRT: I've confirmed I'm standing
[23:00] Seddon: i will be standing so feel free to put me in the pools, but i think we need to get candidates agreed on
[23:00] Tango42: I haven't heard more than 7 people express an intention to stand, so the election may not even be contested
[23:00] AndrewRT: KTC has said he's probably not
[23:00] Tango42: I'll be standing
[23:00] AndrewRT: dont' know about anyone else
[23:00] Seddon: mail the list
[23:00] mpeel: I'm still in two minds, but probably will be standing.
[23:01] schiste: Tango42: see? 
[23:01] schiste: This was just my input on this very issue
[23:01] AndrewRT: Seddon, Tango42, AndrewRT anyone else?
[23:01] Tango42: If it's uncontested, then we'll know for sure. If it ends up being contested, it could be pretty close (the election for the current board was very close - I missed out by a single vote)
[23:01] Tango42: Possibly mpeel
[23:01] Tango42: Warofdreams, will you be standing?
[23:02] Tango42: cfp?
[23:02] AndrewRT: even if only six people stand, it could still be close because they might not get 50%
[23:03] Tango42: it could, but I suspect it's unlikely - there won't be any tactical voting to worry about
[23:03] Warofdreams: I'm not yet sure.  I don't expect to have so much time to spend on Wikimedia UK this year, so I will see how much interest there is - I wouldn't want to deprive someone who could contribute more of a seat.
[23:03] cfp: umm i guess i'll probably stand. but my current level of work isn't sustainable.
[23:03] Tango42: that's one of the reasons we plan to expand to 7 trustees
[23:04] Tango42: mpeel: So much for "trusted"...
[23:04] mpeel:
[23:06] mpeel: ooh: new mac? 
[23:07] Tango42: huh?
[23:07] mpeel: sorry; geek joke
[23:07] Tango42: I'm a geek... I didn't get it...
[23:07] mpeel: "one last thing" is a typical phrase of Steve Jobs at the end of an apple keynote, normally when he's about to announce something cool
[23:07] Tango42: ah
[23:07] Tango42: I'm not really an Apple geek...
[23:08] mpeel: and you call yourself a geek? 
[23:09] cfp: charlie brooker's opinion on macs is about the same
[23:09] Tango42: Are we going with my suggestion of having "Board Member" and "Member" usergroups for the purposes of protection?
[23:09] cfp: not for now
[23:09] cfp: maybe later
[23:10] Tango42: it seems like a good thing to get set up sooner rather than later - one of it's key uses would be holding emergency polls, in an emergency we wouldn't have time to get it all sorted out
[23:10] Warofdreams: I like Charlie Brooker.  He wrote a piece on George Hargreaves using the exact combination of facts I'd used in the Wikipedia article I wrote.
[23:12] Tango42: I advise against an election - unnecessary bureaucracy
[23:13] Tango42: you can get away with telling whoever goes they need to pay for their own food, on the grounds that they would be eating if they were at home. It's a bit harsh, but if money is really tight...
[23:13] Tango42: there are significant benefits to having 2 people, if we can afford it
[23:13] Warofdreams: I really don't think we can
[23:14] Warofdreams: and even if we could, I don't think the benefits are worth the cose
[23:14] Warofdreams: *cost
[23:14] Tango42: WMF aren't going to offer us any money to help?
[23:14] mpeel: other chapters may be able to help
[23:14] mpeel: but the WMF hasn't said anything yet.
[23:14] mpeel: ... not sure they've even been asked.
[23:14] Tango42: mpeel: And how much already owed for setup costs?
[23:15] Tango42: it's hardly a holiday
[23:15] mpeel: that's a question for cfp
[23:15] Tango42: it's a legitimate use of chapter funds, assuming there are funds to use
[23:15] AndrewRT: yes but is it proportionate?
[23:15] cfp: setup costs were up to £120 or something if i remember right. incompatible encoding
[23:15] cfp: so £180 with andrew's new expense incompatible encoding
[23:16] Tango42: I think these chapter meetings are really important
[23:16] cfp: well we haven't even seen an agenda yet
[23:16] Tango42: We'll be far more effective if we are able to work with the other chapters and the WMF, and that requires establishing good relationships with them. This is a great way to do that.
[23:16] cfp: for them to be value for money they have to demonstrate that stuff will happen that couldn't possibly happen by cheaper means (=irc/mailing lists)
[23:17] Tango42: even if there is nothing particularly important on the agenda, the networking opportunity is significant
[23:17] cfp: maybe it will be this time next year
[23:17] Tango42: and I imagine something will happen regarding electing people to the WMF board, we should be involved in that
[23:18] cfp: but right now, we're still finding our feet. we're unlikely to be buying server's, subsidising de's tool server etc etc etc
[23:18] Tango42: Someone else paying, or at the very least lending us the money, does seem to be essential...
[23:19] Tango42: we should try and get someone else to pay
[23:19] Tango42: did I not hear something about the WMF helping with funds for those chapters in need?
[23:19] Seddon: as a note i will get back to you all this, i need to make some enquiries
[23:19] AndrewRT: yes thats true
[23:19] Seddon: on*
[23:20] Tango42: it's not that we don't want to, it's that we can't
[23:20] Tango42: If we had £300, I'd say it's worth the money, but it doesn't look like we will.
[23:21] AndrewRT: well, we probably will actually
[23:21] AndrewRT: we have £200 already
[23:21] Tango42: Yeah, but we have already spend a decent portion of that
[23:21] AndrewRT: hopefully another 10-20 members, £6-12 each plus donations
[23:21] AndrewRT: less £180 expenses
[23:21] AndrewRT: what does that leave?
[23:21] mpeel: let's not spend money we don't have...
[23:21] mpeel: (more than we need to, anyhow)
[23:21] mpeel: so, £20?
[23:22] cfp: we're loaded!
[23:22] Tango42: 15 members at £9 each is £135, £200-£180+£135=£155, nowhere near enough
[23:22] AndrewRT: well maybe £150 tops
[23:22] cfp: and we shouldn't be operating close to the zero line
[23:23] cfp: we need some kind of operating buffer.
[23:23] Tango42: indeed, we should be trying to save up some working capital
[23:23] Tango42: I'll be on Easter hols at the time, so could go if asked
[23:24] Tango42: I also speak a little German, which wouldn't hurt (very little, admittedly - it's been several years since I used it)
[23:25] Seddon: i think i can say the same thing
[23:25] Seddon: though my german may be slightly better, but not by much
[23:26] Tango42: My german is nowhere near good enough to do any chapter business in it, but it's enough that I can spend a few days in Germany asking for directions and doing shopping, etc.
[23:26] Tango42: all chapter business would be in English, I presume
[23:26] AndrewRT: I would imagine so
[23:26] mpeel: that's highly likely
[23:27] Tango42: we should choose 2 people, on the off chance we can find someone willing to pay for us to send 2. (But choose which of the 2 would go if only one can)
[23:28] mpeel: if we manage to get 2 people paid for, then I'd imagine they'd have to be board members, capable of making decisions on behalf of the charity.
[23:29] Tango42: AndrewRT: There is no-one we can guarantee will be elected
[23:29] Seddon: but thats going to be difficult
[23:29] AndrewRT: no but the others will at least be ex-Board members
[23:29] Seddon: hmmmmm
[23:29] Tango42: Does that matter?
[23:29] Seddon: legally its no different to non-board memebrs going
[23:30] Tango42: An ex-board member can't make binding decisions any more than anyone else, and will the other chapters/WMF care who we send?
[23:30] Tango42: They all think we're being far too formal and British about all this anyway!
[23:30] AndrewRT: I dont think anyone will be making decisions there anyway
[23:30] AndrewRT: it will just be a brainstorming/networking event
[23:30] Tango42: Nothing binding, anyway.
[23:31] Tango42: Vague decisions will probably be made
[23:31] mpeel: Tango42: that was the WMF, not the chapters. 
[23:31] Tango42: yeah, there is no reason to rush this too much
[23:31] mpeel: We have yet to impress our britishness on the other chapters yet... 
[23:31] Tango42: I remember at least some chapter people making similar comments
[23:32] Tango42: when they gatecrashed our setup meetings
[23:34] Tango42: mpeel: what did you do wrong?
[23:34] AndrewRT: who was that then?
[23:34] mpeel: I called him a god-king, but apparently he doesn't like that phrase...
[23:35] Tango42: I don't recall names
[23:35] AndrewRT: hehe bit too close to the mark!
[23:35] Tango42: I don't even remember you using the phrase... it's a standard geek term, although not one that really applies to Jimbo anymore.
[23:36] Tango42: How did he know you'd done it if it wasn't on the radio?
[23:36] AndrewRT: I'm pretty sure they didnt' air it - I listened to it all and I dont recall that
[23:36] Warofdreams: mpeel posted it to the list 
[23:37] AndrewRT: oh i c
[23:37] Tango42: it does seem that they organise legal advice for specific problems, rather than having someone on retainer, as it were, which is what we need. I think it's worth finding out, though.
[23:37] AndrewRT: thanks - we have a list of things anyway!
[23:38] mpeel: it's a start at least - and they may be able to recommend law firms that can provide retainer people.
[23:41] Tango42: you could discuss chapter meeting delegates in a week, if nothing else
[23:42] Tango42: has anyone been actioned to go begging for sponsorship for the chapter meeting?
[23:42] mpeel: Andrew has, sort of
[23:42] AndrewRT: yea me
[23:42] Tango42: good, good